ADHD Entrepreneurs ❤️ Business with Occupational Therapist and Coach Jamie Cutino
At first blush you might think that ADHD would hinder your chances to successfully start a business, but this week's guest has something to say about that. Jamie Cutino offers occupational therapy based coaching for women with ADHD and sings the praises of ADHD as a bouquet that can truly benefit the entrepreneur.
Jamie Cutino is a Master of Occupational Therapy and founder of Outsmart ADHD and co-founder of Be Unemployable, an educational brand and podcast for entrepreneurs. We talk about her journey discovering ADHD in the face of trauma in the family, her work as an Occupational Therapist and how that practice helps with ADHD. We lean into rejection sensitivity and how we can heal through normalizing past rejection to get through future rejection.
Check out Jamie's TEDxCWRU talk here.
But most important we dissect what it takes to pull apart the lessons of your ADHD and how it can help you when starting and running a business, and where the sharp edges are for you to care for as you march your way toward being unemployable!
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Pete Wright:
Hello, everybody. And welcome to Taking Control:The ADHD Podcast, on TruStory FM. I'm Pete Wright, and I'm here with Nikki Kinzer.
Nikki Kinzer:
Hello, everyone. Hello, Pete Wright.
Pete Wright:
Nikki, I'm having... This is so crazy. So, back chat. We've already recorded the interview that you're about to hear. And it's with Jamie Cutino, who is amazing and charming, and looks not a little bit like Drew Barrymore. Did you get that feeling at all?
Nikki Kinzer:
Oh, a little bit. Yeah.
Pete Wright:
Oh, yeah.
Nikki Kinzer:
With dark hair.
Pete Wright:
I can totally see a little Drew Barrymore in Jamie. Very fun conversation. We're talking about entrepreneurs and ADHD. And we're kicking off our little series. And it's like the universe is sending me a signal because I'm having a lousy business owner week.
Nikki Kinzer:
Oh, no.
Pete Wright:
And I'm not going to get into specifics, but it's one of those lousy business owner weeks, and I'm so frustrated by the mess that I have created for myself in the building of TruStory FM. And I am so frustrated by it. And then I show up to this conversation, and it just reminds me that everything that I'm going through is totally predictable and absolutely okay. And it is such-
Nikki Kinzer:
Okay.
Pete Wright:
It's such a little-
Nikki Kinzer:
And you're going to get through it.
Pete Wright:
I'm going to get through it, and it's such a little gift to be able to have this conversation with Jamie.
Nikki Kinzer:
Yes.
Pete Wright:
I feel like it's great. Did you learn something?
Nikki Kinzer:
Yes.
Pete Wright:
Yeah? Did you?
Nikki Kinzer:
I learned a lot.
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Nikki Kinzer:
And I adore her.
Pete Wright:
Yeah. Yeah. We actually-
Nikki Kinzer:
She just has a really nice presence.
Pete Wright:
Yes, she really does. She's super charming. And we have people that like, "Oh, we're best friends already." She doesn't know it yet, Jamie, but we're already best friends. Yeah.
Nikki Kinzer:
I want to be her best friend.
Pete Wright:
I want to be her best friend.
Nikki Kinzer:
Totally. Yeah. Great.
Pete Wright:
Well, we're going to dig into that conversation in a minute. But first we have some news. So head over to takecontroladhd.com to get to know us a little bit better. You can listen to the show on the website or subscribe to the mailing list. We'll send you an email each time a new episode is released.
You can find us on Facebook, or Instagram, or Pinterest, at Take Control ADHD, and you can jump into the ADHD Discord server, which we love. Just head over to takecontroladhd.com/discord, and it'll take you right over to the invitation page, which you can accept and jump into our free community.
You can also, if you want a little more, if you want to level up, you can jump over to patreon.com/theadhdpodcast. Patreon is listener-supported podcasting. For a few dollars a month, you can support this show, ensure that we continue to grow and develop new stuff. We're so excited about new stuff. 2023 is going to be a great year. And it's all thanks to you and this Patreon community. And when you sign up, you get access to all kinds of special Discord channels that you can't even see. And I've been really enjoying the conversation in the Gold Club. Nobody knows that exists.
Because the Gold Club is a secret channel that only our highest volume contributors get. It just shows up one day. You don't know when that day is going to be, as a Discord community member, but someday you'll see the Gold Club is there. And you will get all the juiciest memes, because that's what it's supposed to do. It's just comedy.
Nikki Kinzer:
Well, and you know what else?
Pete Wright:
What?
Nikki Kinzer:
That I want to say about Patreon, that's important.
Pete Wright:
Sure.
Nikki Kinzer:
You get the live feed, right?
Pete Wright:
Yes.
Nikki Kinzer:
At the deluxe level. And in this particular conversation that we had with Jamie, there were actually a lot of questions after the show stopped recording.
Pete Wright:
Oh, yeah.
Nikki Kinzer:
So if you want-
Pete Wright:
I mean, I think it was full you for 25 minutes of extra conversation. Yeah.
Nikki Kinzer:
Absolutely. And so, that's another benefit of joining because you get to hear those questions and you get to hear something that we don't necessarily put on the podcast, which wasn't live. It was being recorded for the show.
Pete Wright:
Absolutely. So patreon.com/the-
Nikki Kinzer:
That's another benefit there.
Pete Wright:
Absolutely. Patreon.com/theadhdpodcast to learn more. And as we are recording this, today is a very special day, a VSD, because we have news, right?
Nikki Kinzer:
Yes.
Pete Wright:
What is the news?
Nikki Kinzer:
Group coaching is open.
Pete Wright:
Group coaching is open.
Nikki Kinzer:
We have two fabulous coaching groups that are open for enrollment right now. We have a group around ADHD Overwhelm, with myself and Ian, one of our other TCA coaches. And what's so cool about this group is, we did it last fall, and you come away with a little what to do when I'm overwhelmed toolbox. It's lovely. It's great. And it happened organically. And now we were like, that was such a great thing. We want to do it again.
Pete Wright:
More toolbox.
Nikki Kinzer:
More toolbox stuff. So that's a six-week group that you can check out. And then, we've also are going to try an ADHD book club, which I'm really excited about, where we're going to focus on different books.
And the first book that we're going to focus on is A Radical Guide with Women, or I'm sorry, A Radical Guide for Women with ADHD. However, we're opening this up, not just for women, but for anybody who is looking for a radical guide around acceptance, around ADHD, and how to untangle your brain-based challenges, overcome negative self-talk. Like how I'm selling this?
Pete Wright:
I do. You're doing great.
Nikki Kinzer:
Discover your strengths. I feel like I should have clouds around me or something.
Pete Wright:
Right.
Nikki Kinzer:
But it's really good stuff. And jokes aside, this book is, it's deep, but it's so good for learning how to accept your ADHD and accept that you're not broken. You don't need to be fixed. And to do this with other ADHDers, it's a really great experience.
So this is a longer group session. This is 12 weeks, because we want to go through each chapter of the book one week at a time. But definitely, check it out. If you guys have any questions around either of these groups, please let us know.
Pete Wright:
And we should also add, the book club, the book group, it's a coaching group. And this is just the first book in the series.
Nikki Kinzer:
Right.
Pete Wright:
Women with ADHD. A Radical Guide for Women with ADHD. So we're really trying, I know it's written on the cover, Women with ADHD, it is not going to be approached as a gender-based thing. Anybody can sign up and know that there are future books that we're going to take on as the book group, right?
Nikki Kinzer:
Yes.
Pete Wright:
That's very important.
Nikki Kinzer:
Very excited about it.
Pete Wright:
I'm very excited about this. So, that's it. And now, I think we should talk about starting a business.
Nikki Kinzer:
Yes.
Pete Wright:
All right. Jamie.
Jamie Cutino is a master of Occupational Therapy, and a founder of Outsmart ADHD, and co-founder of Be Unemployable, an educational brand and podcast for entrepreneurs.
Jamie, welcome to The ADHD Podcast.
Jamie Cutino:
Thank you so much for having me, Pete and Nikki. I feel like I'm at a really exclusive party. So if that's what you were going for, that's how this feels.
Pete Wright:
I don't even know how to catch it. How does that manifest? Now I really want to know what are we doing that makes us feel exclusive? Are we on a boat somewhere?
Jamie Cutino:
Well, okay. So not exclusive, but you make me feel really special.
Pete Wright:
Okay. I'll take it.
Jamie Cutino:
I'm just like, there's no way you're doing this for everybody. So this has to be exclusive.
Nikki Kinzer:
It is. Yes.
Pete Wright:
That's right. Wait until you see the swag bag. Yeah. Okay.
Nikki Kinzer:
That's right.
Pete Wright:
We're talking.
Nikki Kinzer:
I saw your TEDx Talk.
Jamie Cutino:
Oh.
Nikki Kinzer:
I know who we're talking to.
Pete Wright:
Mm-hmm.
Nikki Kinzer:
You are important and you have a great message to share, for sure.
Jamie Cutino:
Thank you.
Pete Wright:
For sure.
Nikki Kinzer:
We're happy to have you here.
Pete Wright:
Well, you're here kicking off a little series that we're talking about, Entrepreneurship and ADHD. Because I know a lot of people have, in their heads and hearts, that starting a business, running a business, owning a business, is going to be just impossible to do because of the relationship they have with their ADHD.
And we got real excited to talk to you specifically, so that we can kind of counterman or intervene in that particular thought process. And hopefully, do some retuning. And celebrate what we can do with our ADHD that might actually support and be good for a new business.
So let's just start with your journey, both with ADHD and your own businesses.
Jamie Cutino:
Thank you. So when you go to school for 10 years and get a Master's degree, the goal wasn't to go to school for 10 years and then not use that degree in the traditional sense. So, I have a Master's degree of Occupational Therapy, but-
Pete Wright:
You got to tell people, though, what OT is. As an OT-
Jamie Cutino:
Yes.
Pete Wright:
... what do you do? What would you be doing with your degree if you were actually doing it?
Jamie Cutino:
Yes, thank you. I always forget, I always just make these assumptions, but I didn't even know how to explain Occupational Therapy until probably my last year in school. So let me break it down.
How an occupational therapist works is they pretty much look at where is your current function, like you as a person, what is your goal and what is the creative way to get there. In a nutshell, that's what an occupational therapist does, whether that be somebody with CP or with ADHD. Whether that be kiddos, whether that be babies in the NICU, whether that be somebody that's 99 years old in a skilled nursing facility.
We look at them as a person, what do they want to accomplish or in their family, whether they have caretakers, and then figure out a way, how do we get them there, is essentially what an OT is.
Pete Wright:
It's got a tricky name because it says occupational, and I think a lot of people assume that OTs only exist at work, right? In some sort of facility.
Jamie Cutino:
Yeah.
Pete Wright:
That's not what we're talking about.
Jamie Cutino:
No.
Pete Wright:
It's functional-
Jamie Cutino:
Absolutely.
Pete Wright:
... therapy, rather than occupational, in that sense you might hear.
Jamie Cutino:
Absolutely. And I love that word, P, that's exactly how I describe it. I help you to function in daily life, is absolutely what it is.
Pete Wright:
I'm really spoiled because my wife is this Speech Path and runs a company that places SLPs, OTs and School Psychs everywhere in places.
Jamie Cutino:
Oh, wow.
Pete Wright:
You are totally speaking my language. One of the reasons I'm so excited to talk to you because you have a bent that really relates to me.
Jamie Cutino:
Yeah.
Nikki Kinzer:
So I don't have that bent, or that experience or that vocabulary, so I have a question. I always thought the occupational therapy, and maybe this is what you're saying, is on a physical sense. So for example, my mom had to have, she hurt her hip really bad. So she went into a rehab, and I know she went through occupational therapy to help her walk with her hip.
Jamie Cutino:
Yeah.
Nikki Kinzer:
At least I think it was occupational therapy, maybe it was just physical therapy.
Pete Wright:
Physical therapy.
Nikki Kinzer:
Am I getting the two mixed up?
Jamie Cutino:
So, a physical therapist is going to look at more of the body and the structures. Is your hip bending the way it needs to? Are your knees bending the way they need to? Are you able to walk with a correct gait or a healthy gait?
Whereas an occupational therapist is going to look at that person and say, are they able to get to the toilet? Are they able to dress themselves? So, yes, we look at the physical aspects, but relating it back to what do they need to do in daily life, that they're having trouble doing at this moment.
Nikki Kinzer:
Okay. So how does that work with ADHD then?
Jamie Cutino:
So with ADHD, occupational therapists, there are physical things we can help with, but also it can be related to helping with getting tasks done. OTs also help as far as social skills. Being able to get your laundry done requires executive functioning, which obviously with our underdeveloped frontal lobe can be really challenging.
So even looking at, okay, I'm having a hard time getting my package returned to Amazon on time, or I'm having a hard time emotionally regulating when my kids are screaming because of X, Y, and Z. All these things that are out your control. So, OT helps with all of that as well.
Pete Wright:
It's really great.
Nikki Kinzer:
Okay.
Pete Wright:
Because the way I think of it, OT works in terms of frameworks, right? Processes, frameworks. You're having trouble with your executive function because you want to do a process. Let's put a framework into place that helps you rationalize the steps that you take to get there.
So it's a cross of, a blend of executive functioning and organizing and physical stuff. It's a little bit of everything. And also, I think, what makes it hard to explain.
Jamie Cutino:
Yes.
Pete Wright:
How it actually works.
Jamie Cutino:
Absolutely.
Pete Wright:
So, let's go back to your story then. So you were talking about going school, you got your Master's in OT.
Jamie Cutino:
Yeah.
Pete Wright:
And then, what happened?
Jamie Cutino:
Well, really funny. Not funny-haha, but funny-ooh thing happened, where my husband went through some very serious mental health issues. We had to move in with his parents for about eight months, while he recovered and was back to work. He had a nervous breakdown and he's even better now than he was prior to the breakdown. I'm so thankful. For a while there, I didn't know if I'd ever have my best friend back.
But anyway, while he was recovering and we were living at his parents, he bought me the book called The 4-Hour Work Week, by Tim Ferriss, because I have always been an entrepreneur at heart. I mean, I can remember back being in second and third grade, trying to sell my stuffy animals out of my desk to make a buck type of person.
Nikki Kinzer:
That's a good idea.
Jamie Cutino:
The teachers shut me down. I don't understand why. So, I've always had the entrepreneurial spirit at heart. So he got me that book as a pick me up because we were in such a low time in our lives. So I read this book, and it kept talking about what are you good at and what will make you money. The cross of that is pretty much that should be your business.
And it hit me like a ton of bricks. I'm like, holy crap. I am a functioning woman with ADHD. I'm going to teach other women how to be functional with ADHD. And I say women only because that's who I personally coach, but I create resources so that it can help anybody with ADHD.
So, I ran with that idea. And I ran with it, and went from just an idea to not one but two businesses in less than a year.
Pete Wright:
That's a lot.
Nikki Kinzer:
Amazing.
Pete Wright:
And not one, but two businesses in less than a year.
Jamie Cutino:
Yeah.
Pete Wright:
It stresses me out.
Nikki Kinzer:
We're just trying to hold onto one.
Pete Wright:
Yeah. Just really, really on the edge with just one. So, let's talk about how you think about ADHD in a way that makes it less terrifying to start, not one, but two businesses and not more.
Jamie Cutino:
Okay. So let's talk about why ADHDers make incredible business owners.
Pete Wright:
Perfect.
Jamie Cutino:
And I will unapologetically say I'm a great business owner. I'm a terrible employee for these exact reasons, okay? So, first of all, we can hyper-focus like no other. If I have it in my head that I'm going to get a TED Talk, therefore I got a TED Talk, not because I am somebody, I was nobody before that, but because I was so bent on that happening. Hyper-focused, that's one. We are incredible at that.
Two, I believe that because our brain is always going 17,000 miles per hour, we can problem-solve really quickly. And I talked about that in the TED Talk too. If I'm having a business problem and I've got two options, let's ask a neuro-typical or let's ask an ADHDer, I'm going to ask an ADHDer. They are brilliant humans who will problem-solve. And by the time that a neuro-typical has one possible solution, the ADHDer has 150. They've already tried 30 of them. So that's another reason why we are incredible business owners.
But another thing that I didn't even realize that helps me in my business, until my business partner Maggie pointed out, was my lack of understanding social/rejection cues. That in itself.
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Jamie Cutino:
Yeah. Yeah. That helps me to get the TED Talk. If you were to have seen the email that I sent TEDx coordinators, you would die of embarrassment. I mean, I had no idea what I was doing at all, not a one. And when somebody tells me no, I don't take it as an actual no until I'm told at least three times. Which I think also makes us incredible business owners, because if you're told once and you give up, you're never going to get anywhere in business.
So, those are just a few things that I think makes us incredible business owners.
Nikki Kinzer:
You know, I had an old boss that I used to work with, and one of the things that he would say, he was very innovative and always had really great ideas. And he would say to me, he's like, "You keep pushing for it until they tell you no." And what I love about what you're saying is you keep pushing for it until they tell you no at least three times.
Jamie Cutino:
Oh. At least three times. Don't just tell me once.
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah. At least.
Jamie Cutino:
Yeah. Yeah.
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah. Yeah. I love that.
Pete Wright:
I want to lean in a little bit on the rejection piece, and I'll back up a little bit. I've been listening to Be Unemployable, the podcast you do with Maggie. And one of the things that I think you both say, and just heard her say this morning so it's stuck in my mind, she was talking about something completely different. But the context of her talking about this thing she said, some people's brains work this way. Mine does not. Therefore, this wouldn't work for me, but it might work for others.
And you jumped in, you were like, "Oh, my brain does work that way." Which I found really gratifying, because that leads us into this conversation about rejection.
Jamie Cutino:
Yeah.
Pete Wright:
You said that you don't have a strong awareness or relationship with rejection.
Jamie Cutino:
Yeah.
Pete Wright:
We have a lot of people in our community that do have a very close relationship with RSD, rejection sensitivity, and that can be debilitating in the space of hearing a lot of Nos before you get to Yes.
Jamie Cutino:
Yeah.
Pete Wright:
How do you coach people around that? I guess, two questions. How do you coach people around creating a healthier, positive relationship with rejection when they are sensitive to it? And how do you personally do it when you don't have those issues yourself? Does that make sense? Am I just fumbling words?
Jamie Cutino:
It makes perfect sense. It makes absolutely perfect sense.
Pete Wright:
Okay.
Jamie Cutino:
So my relationship with RSD is very funny, because I absolutely have experienced it very, very strongly in some situations. And then, other situations, I totally didn't even see it. Such as in email, maybe I'm not going to see it. Or if it's written down, I'm a lot less likely to pick up on it. If it's said to me face-to-face, I'm more likely. But I still have to study the body language.
Pete Wright:
Sure.
Jamie Cutino:
But I struggled showing up on social media in the beginning of my business, didn't even realize it was a fear of being seen and a fear of being rejected. And I'll be transparent. I personally went to a therapist for that reason. I sat down. She's like, "Why are you here?" I'm like, "Listen, being afraid of being rejected is keeping me from getting in front of the people I want to help the most. And I want to get past that."
I literally went to therapy to help my business and to help the people that I want to help.
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah. Yeah.
Jamie Cutino:
So first of all, if you find that it is crippling to be in front of other people, there may be something that has happened previously in your life that is making it really, really hard to show up. A lot of us that experience RSD, it didn't come out of nowhere. It came from a lifetime of being rejected.
So first of all, I want to normalize that experience. I have absolutely experienced it to where it was crippling, and I worked through that in therapy and in coaching with Maggie as well.
If you are experiencing that, one quick exercise that I like to share with my clients is writing down, okay, this is the situation. I am feeling this way, and then after that, is my perception of this accurate?
If I'm feeling like they're rejecting me because I said something that was maybe they perceived as not intelligent or rationalizing, is what I'm feeling accurate? Am I actually a terrible person? Because a lot of times you feel like I am a terrible person. I'm not worth talking to. Rationalizing that's not accurate.
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah. Because the ADHDer is going to the worst case scenario, right?
Jamie Cutino:
Yeah.
Nikki Kinzer:
I had a client who has a meeting with her boss today, and she's terrified. And I could be wrong, but my guess is that the meeting is probably just to touch base, but she doesn't see that. She thinks she's getting fired.
Pete Wright:
Something we go back to often, is that the mantra of like, am I right now? Am I living in fact and truth?
Nikki Kinzer:
Yes.
Pete Wright:
Am I living with what I know to be true? Or am I living inside the story that I'm telling myself about?
Jamie Cutino:
Exactly.
Nikki, to touch on what you had said as well, your client's very likely... The boss wants to touch base, right? And sometimes I will even play devil's advocate if they're feeling like, "Okay, I'm going to have to get fired." It's like, okay, worst case scenario, you get fired. Let's say that that happens. Do you have skills? Do you think you could probably find another job? If your life depended on it, could you do DoorDash? Or do you think you're going to lose your house tomorrow if you are going to get fired?
Probably not. Maybe there's someone you can... So sometimes I'll even play devil's advocates. Okay, so let's assume that that happens. What would you do about it?
Pete Wright:
Let's play it out.
Jamie Cutino:
Yeah, let's play it out.
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah. Yeah.
Jamie Cutino:
And then when they realize, "Oh, my life isn't over even with the worst case scenario," which is very likely not going to happen.
Nikki Kinzer:
Right.
Jamie Cutino:
Sometimes it can contain those circling thoughts that can be absolutely overwhelming.
Pete Wright:
That's the sort of the lean in paradox. We've had Dr. Dodge Rea on the show, but he's been on the show a number of times. And his entire mode is, when you're dealing with trauma, he's a trauma therapist. And when you're dealing with capital T, Trauma, even lowercase T, trauma, the trauma that we deal with day-to-day, that we sort of infuse on ourselves, first embrace it. And let's just see how bad could it really be?
Jamie Cutino:
Yeah.
Pete Wright:
If you just say the words aloud and let yourself hear them, does that allow you to reset inside of fact and truth?
Jamie Cutino:
Right.
Pete Wright:
Inside of only what you know. I think that's a real gift. To play that out, that's pretty special.
Nikki Kinzer:
So as an entrepreneur, I'm curious, going back to that, because there's a lot, I mean, you almost have to accept the fact that as an entrepreneur, you're going to try something and it's not going to work out.
Jamie Cutino:
I'm laughing because it's like... I'll let you know when I have it all figured out, Nikki, I'll give you a call.
Pete Wright:
Yeah, right.
Nikki Kinzer:
Exactly. I mean, I can't tell you how many things in my own business, and Pete, you've been alongside with me for the whole thing, how many ideas we've had and how many things we've tried. And it's interesting, because now I'll try something and if it doesn't work out, I really don't take it personally.
I'm like, okay, well that just didn't work out. We move on to the next thing. What did we learn from it?
Jamie Cutino:
Absolutely.
Nikki Kinzer:
It wasn't right for our clients. Okay. It wasn't right for our listeners. All right. I get that. It's okay. But we've been doing this for a long time and we've been trying things for a long time, and I don't know if we would've felt that way 10 years ago. I think we both would've been devastated. You can say, oh my God.
Pete Wright:
We were devastated. We've lived through that.
Jamie Cutino:
Let's not act like that didn't happen, Nikki.
Pete Wright:
Fact and truth, we've tried some crazy stuff.
Nikki Kinzer:
Weird stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Especially somebody who's really excited about starting a new business, they want to be on their own. Maybe they just got, I hear this a lot. I don't know if you do too, Jamie. They got let go. Maybe not because they were fired, but because they were laid off or whatever. And this is the opportunity, right? The door has opened, but they're just starting.
Jamie Cutino:
Yeah.
Nikki Kinzer:
What would you say to that person?
Jamie Cutino:
This is, okay, listeners, don't glaze over when I say this because you're going to be like, "Oh, I've heard this before." But you really have to go back to why you're doing this in the first place. My why was that I wanted to make sure that my husband was never so stressed out to where he would have another mental breakdown. Quite honestly, that is that in itself, there's nothing that was more painful than watching that happen to my best friend. There's nothing that would make me more determined.
But also, the thought of sitting in a desk for 40 hours a week, working for somebody else who is going to not value me the way that I deserve to be valued, the fact that I'm going to have to ask them every single time that I want to take a sick day, a vacation day. That in itself, yes, entrepreneurship is hard, but it's really hard reporting to somebody that does not value you the way that you deserve to be valued. And that doesn't give you the freedom that you so desperately want, and honestly need as an ADHDer with very fluctuating energy levels.
I mean, I don't know about you guys, but I can have the best of intentions for a day, and sometimes it just does not go as planned. And then the next day, I get two times as much done as I had originally planned. And I personally don't know of a job, clocking in for somebody else, that gives me that freedom. And I remind myself of that every time that it gets tough. Because if I were to sit here and say that I'd never thought about why did I even do this, it's so hard, that'd be a total lie. It's really challenging.
But, to me, it's worth it to not have to work for somebody else and to have freedom.
Nikki Kinzer:
You know it's interesting, because a couple things I want to say about what you just said. One is I totally agree with you about the sick day. That is definitely one of the reasons why I wanted to work for myself, is that I hated the fact that I would have to go into my boss' office and say, "Can I get off 30 minutes early today so that I can do this?"
It's ridiculous. I wish that the work environment wasn't so eight-to-five.
Pete Wright:
It's only gotten worse now with productivity tracking.
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah. Exactly.
Pete Wright:
And people buying mouse-jigglers to make it look like their computers are active.
Jamie Cutino:
I may or may not have done that, as I was building my business behind the scenes in my corporate job. If you were doing that, go buy yourself a mouse-jiggler. I didn't tell you that. Don't tell them. But I'm telling you, go do that.
Pete Wright:
They may not even exist. I mean, you'll have to go to Amazon and find out.
Jamie Cutino:
Right.
Pete Wright:
They might not be a thing. We could be making that up right now.
Jamie Cutino:
We could.
Nikki Kinzer:
That's right.
Jamie Cutino:
We could totally be making it up.
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Jamie Cutino:
Yeah.
Nikki Kinzer:
That's right.
Pete Wright:
But also, we're not making it up, maybe.
Jamie Cutino:
You need to go to Amazon right now.
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Jamie Cutino:
That's the best 20 bucks that you're ever going to spend.
Nikki Kinzer:
Shut down. No. The other thing, though, I do want to point out that I think is really important, because this happens to so many people. And I don't think that they quite understand that it's also an ADHD thing, is that you can have a really productive day and then the next day not be productive.
Jamie Cutino:
Yes.
Nikki Kinzer:
You can have a really productive week and then the next week you are out.
Jamie Cutino:
Absolutely.
Nikki Kinzer:
Right? And it does. It's your energy. It's how much you've spent that day. Or the dopamine is high one day and then it just goes down to nothing. And it's very normal. And I think that people don't understand how normal it is, that you are going to go and wait.
Jamie Cutino:
Absolutely.
Nikki Kinzer:
And accept it.
Jamie Cutino:
Absolutely.
Nikki Kinzer:
If you can accept it and embrace it, it's not as bad. You won't have as much shame around it.
Pete Wright:
So we've talked a number of times about embracing just healthy sleep patterns and how good sleep is for you. But it's also okay to embrace your productive hours of the day. I sometimes just get on an energy bender at nine o'clock at night, and can work until three, and not even notice.
Jamie Cutino:
Yep.
Pete Wright:
And as long as you're cognizant at some point that your body needs to recharge. You can't just then eat cereal from three to seven, then start work again.
Jamie Cutino:
Right.
Pete Wright:
You have to find a balance and that might not be sustainable. It's okay.
Jamie Cutino:
Yes.
Pete Wright:
To give yourself, to celebrate the work that you're doing when you're doing it.
Jamie Cutino:
Absolutely. Maggie's an incredible example of this. I mean, she can work literally all night and get so much done. And then the next day or two, it's like she's resting. She absolutely respects that. When she's got a bout of hyper focus, she's going to harness it. And then she's going to rest when she needs to.
And since she owns her own business, she gets to set her days the way that she wants to. And there's nothing wrong with that. And embracing just day-to-day in general, sleep, energy, productivity isn't going to be the same for us versus maybe a neuro-typical.
Pete Wright:
Okay. So we've talked about rejection, we've talked about energy. Let's talk about this line from your TEDx Talk, "I'm successful because of my ADHD brain."
I want to talk about how you celebrate yourself and the uniqueness of your brain to be a successful entrepreneur.
Jamie Cutino:
So, I know there's a big dichotomy out there of, is ADHD a superpower? Is ADHD a disability? It's yes to all of that. Yes. The answer to that is absolutely yes.
I am at a point now to where I have systems in place, and I have systems and tools to function on a daily basis. Now that I have those systems and those tools, I can harness those things, like hyper-focus, and to be able to problem-solve incredibly quickly.
I don't know, if I had a neuro-typical brain, that I would have been able to grow this quickly in the span of a year. I don't know because I don't have a neuro-typical brain. But I can say that I did it with my ADHD brain.
There's so much stigma put on people with ADHD, that we are not capable, that we just need to try harder, that we're not focused, we're not organized, which I don't think that it's our brain that's at fault. I think that the world tries to put us in this neuro-typical bubble and give us neuro-typical tools. And because of that, it can be very, very hard to function.
But I have a beautiful ADHD brain, with the right tools. And with those tools and with this brain, I can accomplish a lot in a very short time.
Nikki Kinzer:
Oh, I love that. Very inspiring.
Pete Wright:
What was that? Do you remember, when you think about the early pains of starting your businesses, what was the hardest thing for you?
Jamie Cutino:
Oh.
Pete Wright:
To get to the other side?
Jamie Cutino:
Just one? I'm so humble in that I had absolutely no idea what I was doing. I was taking a shot in the dark, and failing and learning as I went. As silly as it sounds, learning how to talk to people was challenging for me. And that may seem sound very silly.
Pete Wright:
It sounds a little ridiculous right now.
Jamie Cutino:
It sounds ridiculous right now, but I was very much crippled by RSD. And if there was someone who didn't answer a message when I'm offering my services, and they're reaching out for help, I absolutely took it to heart.
Learning how to talk to people in a professional manner, learning how to talk to people, not just as their best friend, but as an expert in the field, felt very uncomfortable for me in the beginning because I just want to help everyone. And once I get close with someone, it's like, "Oh, well you're just a best friend now," but clients won't see you as that expert if you're talking to them like a best friend from day one. And that's something I had to learn and step into that role of, "Hey, listen, I really can help you. I do have the tools to help you." That was really challenging for me.
And then, of course, technology. Because, as you guys saw, it took me about three minutes to remember how to put my phone on Do Not Disturb because I've got a newish iPhone. And the tech parts of everything have just been a nightmare, that I have worked through. But those are two of the big things.
Nikki Kinzer:
And I think that is something that's important to highlight. One of the things that I'll tell people or talk to people about, when they're talking about businesses and entrepreneurship, know what you're good at and then know what you can delegate.
Jamie Cutino:
Yes.
Nikki Kinzer:
And I was lucky because I've had Pete literally since day one, and I knew I wasn't going to figure out the tech part.
Jamie Cutino:
Yeah.
Nikki Kinzer:
I knew I wasn't going to figure out how to do a website or whatever. And I think it's important to know when it's good to invest in somebody to help you.
And for a long time, my money went to Pete.
Jamie Cutino:
Yeah.
Nikki Kinzer:
Any money that I made went to Pete. But it was worth it, because he was able to do things that I would never have been able to do and wouldn't have had a business that I have to pay.
Jamie Cutino:
Right.
Nikki Kinzer:
And so, I think it is important to know what you're good at, what you're not good at, be able to invest in that, delegate it. And really concentrate on what you want to do, and watch it flourish.
Jamie Cutino:
Absolutely. And a lot of my beginning revenue also went into, I mean, I hired Maggie as my business coach before I had a dime of revenue. And that is one of the best investments I had ever made.
But also, when I had trouble with tech things, I was also hiring friends that were good at tech. Because the bandwidth that would've taken in my brain to figure out something that was very, quote, unquote, simple, there's not enough space in my brain to do everything that I am good at, that I need to do in the business, and figure out how to do the tech.
I also had to hire out my website. Plug for Maggie, because if you like my website, she did my entire website. Because she also does graphic design. But you absolutely have to know what you can delegate. And I tell people, you don't have to be able to hire somebody on full-time to delegate things. You can find a VA who's willing to work for you for an hour, and as long as you've got maybe 20, $25, pay them a good wage for that hour because I'm totally against not paying people what they're worth. But you can delegate a lot to that person. They could get maybe six hours of what would take you done in an hour or two. So, big on delegating.
Pete Wright:
Well, yeah.
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah.
Pete Wright:
And I think one of the great things you get with somebody else, when you're working with somebody else, is you have somebody remind you that you're worth more than you think you are.
Jamie Cutino:
Yes.
Pete Wright:
And I think back to some of the earlier conversations Nikki and I had, which was, "Nikki, you need to charge what you're worth for your business, to grow it." And it sounds like Maggie serves sort of a similar role to you, reminding you of the value of the place that you serve in the universe. And I think that's pretty good.
Nikki Kinzer:
And being an expert too, I think it's also something that I've learned to embrace, is that, yes, I'm an expert on ADHD and it's okay if I don't know something. So something will come up, and questions will come up, and I don't know the answers. And I'm very comfortable with saying, "I don't know that. Let me find out more about that."
It happened yesterday in our Coaching with Nikki. We have a monthly thing that we do with our Patreons, and somebody had started to talk about grief and trauma. And that's something that I really want to know more about. And because I'm not an expert in grief and trauma in ADHD, but man, I want to know more about it. So I'm asking her for resources. So we're always learning too, and we're always okay with not knowing. But yet, you can still be an expert.
Jamie Cutino:
Absolutely.
Nikki Kinzer:
Right? You can still know a lot about it and be able to help people and get them to where they want to be. So, it's a journey for sure.
Jamie Cutino:
It is. And I think it was Denise Duffield-Thomas talked about this in her podcast, Chill and Prosper. But you can be part of a conversation and you don't have to rely on yourself to be the entire conversation. So yes, we are experts in ADHD. But maybe ADHD, grief and trauma, not so much. But you're part of the conversation. You are an expert in that. So, I do love that.
Nikki Kinzer:
Mm-hmm.
Pete Wright:
I want to turn to your business and the podcast a little bit.
Jamie Cutino:
Yes.
Pete Wright:
So I was listening to the show. It's called Be Unemployable, co-founder of Be Unemployable. And I was like, "Oh, that's sad." And it took me... Well, now wait for it. I'm sitting here about halfway through our conversation, and I realize, oh yeah, I'm totally unemployable. And I realize, oh my God. I'm totally unemployable. Yet, I would have it no other way.
Jamie Cutino:
Yes.
Pete Wright:
I would make a lousy employee.
Jamie Cutino:
Uh-huh.
Pete Wright:
A lousy employee, and I would have it no other way. How did you arrive at that so far before me?
Jamie Cutino:
Honestly, Maggie's coaching. She has been absolutely incredible in teaching me my worth. And the last corporate job I had really brought it to a head of how incredibly unemployable I am. Because if you're not doing things efficiently, I'm going to show you how I've been doing it differently and a lot more has been getting done. But it doesn't follow your A through Z protocol. But do you want results and maybe to tweak a few things? Or do you want to do things the same way you've always done them?
It turns out they want to do things the same thing they've always done. And they didn't really like my innovation. But I'm right there with you, Pete. Very unemployable.
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Jamie Cutino:
I know my worth.
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Jamie Cutino:
Yeah. Yeah.
Nikki Kinzer:
So is Maggie, did you hire her as a business coach? Does she have ADHD? Was she an ADHD business coach?
Jamie Cutino:
Yeah.
Nikki Kinzer:
Or how does she fit in?
Jamie Cutino:
So she actually has a TED Talk too. We both did a TED Talk at the same event. Highly recommend seeing that too.
Nikki Kinzer:
Oh. Okay.
Jamie Cutino:
But yes, she has ADHD and she also has autism as well. And I hired her as my business coach. And it was so funny because I was in Ohio filming for my program, or she was helping me to film the program. And we were in Panera, having a meal, talking about how in the past we had tried having co-hosts with a podcast and it just didn't work out. And we had both talked about just doing one solo.
And I'm just like, "Maggie, I know we both talked about having solo podcasts because of things in the past." And she's like, "Jamie, are you asking me to go steady?" I'm like, "Yes, I am." And she was like, "Okay. Well, if you're going to be part of this..." And she got out her notebook that said podcast and like, "I want you to be part of this."
And she showed me her business plan for the business Be Unemployable. And I'm like, "Oh, I want to be part of that." And we wrote on a napkin at Panera how much of the company each of us would own, and ran with that idea as well.
So that was back in March. We've been working on things in the meantime. We'll be launching education to go with that brand, in the end of the first quarter was our original plan, but might be pushed back a bit. But that's how we went from being a business coach-client relationship to also now being business partners.
Pete Wright:
Business partner.
Jamie Cutino:
Yeah. Yep. Partner.
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah.
Pete Wright:
And this is very timely.
Nikki Kinzer:
That's great.
Pete Wright:
I guess I didn't realize just how on the precipice your next sort of phase of Be Unemployable is.
Jamie Cutino:
Yeah.
Pete Wright:
Beyond the coaching. And that's fantastic. That's fantastic.
Jamie Cutino:
Thank you.
Nikki Kinzer:
I'm just curious about what you guys talk about on the podcast.
Jamie Cutino:
On the podcast is pretty much how to run a business when you are neuro-divergent, whether it be ADHD, autism, because we do need different tools to be able to function. Like RSD is a thing, we've got some episodes on RSD. Pretty much how to run a business with ADHD and neuro-diversity is what's on that podcast. Yeah.
Nikki Kinzer:
That's great. Well, thank you so much for being here. It's such a pleasure to meet you.
Jamie Cutino:
Thank you.
Nikki Kinzer:
And have you on here, and tell us what you're doing and what you guys are working on. And it's been a pleasure.
Jamie Cutino:
Thank you for having me in this exclusive club.
Nikki Kinzer:
Right?
Pete Wright:
Yacht-bound. Excuse us, from Davos. Yes.
Nikki Kinzer:
Red carpet rolled out. We're fanning you. Whatever you need. You need a drink, we'll get you.
Jamie Cutino:
You're too kind. But thank you. I really appreciate it.
Pete Wright:
And thank you, everybody, for downloading, listening to this show. We sure appreciate your time and your attention.
Don't forget, if you have something to contribute about this conversation, we're heading over to the Show Talk channel in the Discord server, and you can join us right there by becoming a supporting member at the deluxe level.
On behalf of Nikki Kinzer and Jamie Cutino, live from the yacht, I'm Pete Wright. And we'll see you right back here next week on Taking Control:The ADHD Podcast.
