Wrestling “The Avoidance” with Dr. Sharon Saline
The esteemed Hall of Fame ADHD Podcast Guest and dear friend Dr. Sharon Saline graces the show once again! This week: why is it hard for ADHDers to be authentic joiners? Sharon offers her wisdom on the value of community in managing ADHD, addressing the fears and hesitations that can often prevent individuals from seeking out communal ties.
One of the main topics we discuss is avoidance behaviors towards community engagement. There are myriad reasons why a person might be reluctant to participate in group settings, such as social anxiety, previous negative experiences, Rejection Sensitive Dysphoria (RSD), fear of the unknown, and confusion about how to navigate new situations. Dr. Saline emphasizes the potential impacts of such isolating behaviors on a person's physical, mental, and social well-being. She also highlights the importance of fostering relationships, regardless of their novelty, and addresses the common misconception that having a few friends who may not fully understand an individual's experiences is sufficient.
How do we approach overcoming the avoidance of community engagement? Dr. Saline provides practical advice for those who seek the connection a community offers but are held back by their fears. She discusses the potential benefits of therapy or professional healthcare consultations to better understand and manage these fears. She also provides strategies to combat the paralysis often brought on by the fear of RSD and the "what if" scenarios that can hinder one from entering new group situations. Her advice to those who've had negative group interactions in the past is particularly powerful, urging them not to let past experiences define their future opportunities.
Links & Notes
Learn more about Dr. Saline on her site, https://drsharonsaline.com, and make sure to pick up a copy of her fantastic book, "What Your ADHD Child Wishes You Knew: Working Together to Empower Kids for Success in School and Life”— it’s fantastic!
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Pete Wright:
Hello everybody and welcome to Taking Control: The ADHD Podcast on TruStory FM. I'm Pete Wright and I'm right over there with Nikki Kinzer.
Nikki Kinzer:
Hello everyone. Hello, Pete Wright.
Pete Wright:
Hi, how are you?
Nikki Kinzer:
I'm doing great.
Pete Wright:
We're recording this off schedule and it's thrown my entire day.
Nikki Kinzer:
I know.
Pete Wright:
It's thrown my entire day off. I don't know which end is up.
Nikki Kinzer:
Well, it's afternoon, so I guess it's down.
Pete Wright:
Very, very strange. My dog is definitely in play mode, and so that might be happening right during the show. He might just decide it's time. I have sufficiently treated him, so he should be okay, but he has ADHD, so what are you going to do?
Nikki Kinzer:
It's true.
Pete Wright:
This is a great show today. I'm very excited about this. Happy ADHD Awareness Month. This is very, very exciting, mostly because we have a dear friend back in the show and I think, but this episode, our dear friend enters the ADHD Podcast Hall of Fame. This is the fifth.
Dr. Sharon Saline:
Oh my God.
Pete Wright:
Fifth appearance.
Dr. Sharon Saline:
I'm so excited I can hardly stand it.
Pete Wright:
She speaks from the void. It's very, very exciting. This is a Hall of Fame guest appearance. I'm not even going to tell you who she is yet because I got to tell you all the commercial stuff.
Before we start the show, head over to takecontroladhd.com to get to know us a little bit better. You can listen to the show right there on the website or subscribe to our mailing list on the homepage. We'll send you an email each time a new episode is released. You can connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, or Pinterest at Take Control ADHD. But to really connect with us, join us in the ADHD Discord community. Super easy to jump in the general community chat channel. Just visit takecontroladhd.com/discord and you will be whisked over to the general invitation and log in.
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Now our one bit of news, because it's ADHD Awareness Month, we are halfway through the month as you listen to this and we're still going strong in that Discord community. We've got multiple events available to the community every week. Head over to takecontroladhd.com/awareness23 to find out what's going on and how you can join in. So much stuff is open to the public that is normally hidden behind the big velvet curtain, digital curtain this month. We're excited to let you keep it in.
Nikki, the greatest soldier in the war against stinking thinking is back. Sharon Saline, author of the award-winning book, What Your ADHD Child Wishes You Knew: Working Together to Empower Kids for Success at School and Life and the ADHD Solution Card Deck is back for her fifth appearance, and today she's going to help us journey through the power of community in our own ADHD lives. Sharon, welcome back.
Dr. Sharon Saline:
Thank you so much. So excited to be here.
Nikki Kinzer:
Welcome.
Dr. Sharon Saline:
Love coming on your show. It's a highlight for me.
Pete Wright:
I'm so glad, so glad. So you know what, Nikki, set us up. Where did we start talking about why did we start talking about community in ADHD?
Nikki Kinzer:
Well, because it's so important. It is so important, I think, not only to help navigate and understand your ADHD, but just to have that support and that understanding that somebody gets you and you don't have to explain to them what's going on because they understand it. They're going through it themselves, and there's this bond that just immediately happens when two ADHD people get together. They just get each other and then you get a whole group of people. We were just talking about the conference that's going to be coming up in Baltimore in November for ADHD, that national conference, and that's a really fun place for community and getting to be with people that get you.
Dr. Sharon Saline:
In fact, I said to Nikki, "I'm so excited I'm going to get to meet you again." And Nikki was like, "You already met me." I'm like, "Again. Again, I get to hang out with you."
Nikki Kinzer:
Right.
Pete Wright:
Yeah, that's right. I mean, there's just a lot of joy and a lot of energy around it, but I think when we're living with our ADHD, it can feel very isolating. And that's one of the things we want to talk about with you today, Sharon. As you work with people and you work with families and kids, what is the value of community to someone whose ADHD is leading them down a particularly isolated path? How do you navigate that?
Dr. Sharon Saline:
It's such a good question. So human beings, we're wired for connection. And one of the very sad aspects of being neurodivergent is that you feel differently, you think differently, and from the outside you look just like everybody else. And so the expectation is that you perform "in a neurotypical way" rather than honoring the creativity, the spontaneity, the innovation, the humor, and the sensitivity that you carry as somebody who has ADHD. And so one of the patterns that we're most concerned about in mental health in general right now are the higher rates of anxiety and depression that we're seeing across the board. And this isolation started during COVID, but for people who are neurodivergent, it's probably been with them for many, many years, likely since childhood when they felt like they were doing it "wrong," that they were getting a direction that they had to do it differently or my personal favorite, you're just too much. That's actually going to be the theme of my performance at the talent show.
Nikki Kinzer:
Oh, good.
Dr. Sharon Saline:
Because I have some feelings about that. And one of the things that's really great about being open about your neurodivergence, so I'm open that I have a lot of anxiety and I also have some mild ADHD around emotional control time. It's just slippery for me as Ari Tuckman says, and a little bit of problem shifting like if I really want to do something and then it changes in the last minute, it takes me a little bit, a minute or two, a minute, more than a minute, several minutes to manage my disappointment about that. So these are things that I work on and I use my own tools to help me, and they've assisted me in creating the philosophy that I have about ADHD.
But I want to lead with that because I want other people to know, hey, people like Dr. Sharon struggle. People like Nikki struggle, people like Pete struggle and we all have strengths and talents. And so one of the things that's important about being in community is being able to live in the full sense of who you are, and not worry about being judged negatively for that.
Nikki Kinzer:
Because that's really what it is, it's that judgment that we feel. Whether it's true or not, we're feeling it, right? We're feeling we're being judged.
Dr. Sharon Saline:
Yes. And I think some of that has come from actually being judged.
Nikki Kinzer:
Right.
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Dr. Sharon Saline:
I've been working with children and teens who mature into adults, so I really see PhD across the lifespan. And the fact is that children and teenagers and even adults can be mean.
Nikki Kinzer:
It can be very mean.
Dr. Sharon Saline:
It can be very mean. And so there's all kinds of exclusion or bullying or put downs that can occur and it hurts. And for many people with ADHD who are sensitive, who may have rejection sensitivity dysphoria or just be emotionally open and I don't know, I guess the word is, I guess it's just sensitive. It can be difficult. I mean, in my family, when I grew up, I was sensitive. I've always been sensitive. And that is actually a strength for me as a psychologist and as an expert in ADHD, as someone who teaches and consults, that sensitivity is very helpful because I can tune in to things that are going on around me that other people might miss, but I was teased even by my parents and my brother. I was called super sensitive Sharon, how's that helpful?
Pete Wright:
Yeah, right.
Dr. Sharon Saline:
And here I am, a grown woman and I remember that from when I was seven or eight.
Pete Wright:
We're still talking about it right now.
Dr. Sharon Saline:
We're still talking about it.
Nikki Kinzer:
That's right.
Dr. Sharon Saline:
Exactly.
Pete Wright:
So you have just defined the case for why, really why it took me 20 years to even talk about the fact that I was missing out on a community. I struggle with the idea of, given all the stuff that many, especially kids diagnosed with ADHD and the associated lowercase T trauma that they go through in that real judgment, why would they even try to find a community of people? That's the hump you have to get over. I feel like, because they wouldn't even know what's out there.
Dr. Sharon Saline:
It's like why reveal yourself when that opening, someone could pour salt in it?
Pete Wright:
Yes.
Dr. Sharon Saline:
I mean, just these are things that happen to us and these painful incidents stick with us. Now, in my case, I try to use them in my cabaret shows and turn it around and make something humorous out of it, but it's not funny.
Pete Wright:
No.
Dr. Sharon Saline:
And so it's helpful to talk to other people who are sensitive, who are intense, who have a variety of interests and that that's considered normal in our community. Yeah, you have a bunch of interests, of course you do. Yeah, you're high energy, of course you are. So it's very confirming of who we are, and that's what I feel like is so important about community and the ADHD community in general, which is why it's important to own who you are because no one can do that for you. Now do I go around saying I have ADHD, I have ADHD? No. I say I have a highly intense anxious brain because that's what makes sense for me in my daily life. I'm intense and I'm anxious, that's what I deal with. Those are some of the stumbling blocks. So it would be great for you listeners out there to think about if you took the ADHD label away, what would you call your brain? We want to have a name that makes sense for your lived experience, and that's where you can reclaim your power.
Pete Wright:
Go ahead, Nikki, because I'm stymied right now. I'm trying to figure out how would I describe my brain without using those words?
Nikki Kinzer:
Right. How would we do that? I want to answer that question. That's a really strong question. How would you do that, Pete?
Pete Wright:
I don't know. Sharon, guide me through it. How do you talk about it?
Dr. Sharon Saline:
Well, some people say they have a foggy brain or they have a fast brain, or they have a dreamy brain or a spontaneous creative brain, whatever it is, I want you to use language and adjectives that make sense to who you are every day. Because yes, the ADHD is helpful for a diagnosis, for getting medication, for finding books on the topic, but it isn't, having that label isn't necessarily going to help you own who you are.
Pete Wright:
Yeah. ADHD is not an identity I guess. The identity comes from the descriptor of me, what normal is for me.
Dr. Sharon Saline:
So what is normal for you, Pete?
Pete Wright:
Yeah. Well, I mean you just said all of them. I would say chatty.
Nikki Kinzer:
Chatty, okay.
Pete Wright:
I have a talkative brain. Brain that talks a lot through my mouth and just in my head, impulsive. And that cuts both ways too.
Dr. Sharon Saline:
How about spontaneous?
Pete Wright:
Spontaneous, also anxious.
Dr. Sharon Saline:
It's a little less negative.
Pete Wright:
Anxious, but also anxious. And I would say by dint of anxiety comes fearful. I think I carry probably, those gears tend to turn pretty hard more than maybe others, certainly in my family. I don't know. Nikki, how do you fare?
Nikki Kinzer:
I would say curious. I'm a very curious brain. I ask a lot of questions. I'm nosy, I ask questions I probably shouldn't ask, but I'm curious, so I'm going to ask them anyway. Definitely anxious. Definitely some anxiety in there, for sure. Yeah, those are the two that pop up in my mind right away.
Dr. Sharon Saline:
Well, I love that. I actually realize that anxious might not be the best term for me, but I like curious and intense and worried because I have a worry brain. That's really what it is.
Pete Wright:
That's better.
Dr. Sharon Saline:
It worries. It cycles through all kinds of different worries. Toxic, productive, you name it. My brain covers it all. And so we want to own that so that we don't engage in stinking thinking, because stinking thinking says is a finger that's wagging at you about what's wrong with you. So you don't really want to come up with some terms that help us feel pride in who we are.
Pete Wright:
Okay.
Nikki Kinzer:
So I'm curious. I'm curious, look, that word came up again. So for social anxiety, so for people who worry about being in social situations, and I think this isn't just in a physical way, but also I've had people who have told me that they have held back in our community and inside of Discord because they really don't know where they fit in or they're really not sure how to just introduce themselves. How do you deal with that when you really do have this worry and you want to be a part of a community?
Dr. Sharon Saline:
So social anxiety is so interesting because the process of social anxiety is, it's twofold. On a surface level, you're thinking that you know what someone else is thinking about you. That's the process of social anxiety. I think I know what you're thinking about me, I'm worried what you're thinking about me, and so therefore I'm creating a narrative that probably doesn't exist because I don't know what you're thinking about me other than what you show me on your face or you say with your words.
The other part of social anxiety, the deeper when we dig down is this core sense of deficiency. I am not okay. I'm not enough. Whatever the deficiency is for you, not smart enough. I'm not good-looking enough. I'm not clever. People won't like me, whatever it is, okay, I'm not likable enough. I mean, you can just fill in the blank. And so we have to look at that core deficiency, which is really is all about stinking thinking, Pete, which we're telling ourselves these negative things.
And what we want to do instead is try to flip that to something. Sometimes people like me and sometimes they don't, that's okay. I worked with this, I still work with her. She's almost 17, but I worked with her for many years. I've known her six, seven years, and she went to camp, I think she was like 12, and she has ADHD. She also is what we call level one autism. She just struggles with some rigidity and understanding social nuances and basically being able to evaluate herself and the effect of the things that she does on people around her. So we had an agreement with the camp that if she needed to talk to me while she was at camp, we would do a phone session or something. So the camp notified me and we started talking, and I'm going to call her Maya.
So Maya said, "Well, I have this problem, Dr. Sharon."
And I said, "Well, what is it?"
And she said, "Well, people think I don't like them."
And I said, "Really? Why?"
And she said, "Well, because what happens is people will ask me a question or something or they'll say something and I don't know what to say. So I turn around and walk away, and then they think I don't like them."
And I said, "Well, what's happening when you turn around and walk away?"
And she said, "Well, I'm just trying to think about what I want to say or how I feel about what they asked me. I need more time."
I said, "Okay. So do you ever go back and say to them, I thought about this, I just needed more time?"
And she said, "No, I never do that."
I said, "Okay, so let's try an experiment." So here's the experiment. Someone says something to you, you're not sure how to respond. What you say is, "Wow, that's a good question, can I get back to you?"
And she said to me, "Am I allowed to do that?" Am I allowed to do that?
And I said, "Oh, yes, you are."
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah. And you want to keep doing it throughout your whole life.
Dr. Sharon Saline:
Correct.
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah.
Dr. Sharon Saline:
And you want to do it over and over, and then we talked. We did some role plays where she was a fellow camper, and I played her and demonstrated how to do it. And then I was the camper and she was her, okay. We set up a meeting for the following week. The next week we have our meeting. And I say, "Well, how's it going?"
She's like, "Dr. Sharon, it's so much better."
I said, "Why?"
She said, "Because I say to people, can I think about that and get back to you? And they say yes, so then I can think about it and get back to them."
I said, "Really? How does that feel?"
She's like, "So much better."
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah.
Pete Wright:
That gets to something that I feel like I find all the time, which is the role that ADHD plays requires a constant reminder of my agency in the world, right?
Dr. Sharon Saline:
Yes. Because we feel disempowered, because as young people, we were given messages that were negative. Sit down, stop tapping your foot. You're distracting people. Hey, stop looking out the window. Pay attention, whatever it is. These have to do with school or at home, or why can't you pick up your room like your sister can? Blah, blah, blah. And so we internalize that, and then we think that we go into a situation whether you're at camp or you're in the lunchroom at work, that we know what other people are thinking and we don't.
Pete Wright:
Right. But it's awfully easy for us to convince ourselves that we do, right? And that gets to, we'll call that the avoidance. That's the part that puts up such a robust challenge to walking into a room, even a room filled with people just like me. And I'm a 50-year-old man, and I'm still thinking about those things. When I go to events, I'm still thinking about that.
Dr. Sharon Saline:
And so what people need to combat social anxiety is a strategy. When I walk into the room, I'm going to look for a familiar face. I'm going to go up and get myself a seltzer with lime and see if somebody there is seems friendly. I'm going to say hi to three people and see how they respond. And then I'm going to ask them, how's your day? Or where are you from? Or whatever. But you have to have a strategy, and you have to have a strategy of three things. And then it's important, if you need to, you can write it on your phone and just casually check your phone to remind you of your strategy.
Pete Wright:
Well, and it's just a reminder. Normally when I go into an event with a bunch of people just like me, and I say something to someone, I look like the power player. I look like the guy who is in control, when in fact, it's just dumb luck that I happen to speak first. That's okay, nobody else needs to know that and the problem is solved, right?
Dr. Sharon Saline:
You are doing them a favor.
Pete Wright:
Because they're probably thinking the same thing, because again.
Dr. Sharon Saline:
That's right.
Pete Wright:
Just like me, we're all in the same boat. I'm wondering though, when you think about social anxiety is a huge part of why we might avoid or not seek out communities and avail ourselves to the power of a community. But what else do you hear when people talk about why they don't look out for groups like them to engage with? What else do you hear and how do we get to the other side of that?
Dr. Sharon Saline:
Profound rejection sensitivity dysphoria. I am terrified of being rejected. I can't differentiate between when rejection has actually occurred and my belief that rejection is occurring. And either way, I don't know how to respond without collapsing. Instead of realizing that really accepting not everyone is going to like you and that's hard. I mean, it's hard for all of us. It's hard for me. It's hard when someone's putting together a summit. I'm not asked to be part of that summit. That doesn't feel good, but maybe that's about me and maybe it's not. And that's something I've really had to work on my whole life. What part of this is about me and what part of this is not about me? And that's a very challenging question, which is why we have a few best buds or a partner or a sibling or somebody who you can check out what's happened. Gauge, am I overreacting or was this actually a crappy thing?
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah, getting that second point of view.
Dr. Sharon Saline:
But you have to have, people don't need tons of friends, right?
Nikki Kinzer:
Right.
Dr. Sharon Saline:
We need basically two or three friends, minimum. One person to spend time with, a second person to spend time with if that first person is busy, and maybe a third person to spend time with if the first two people aren't available, that's what you need. You don't need a whole gaggle of people. And so what happens is, for a lot of people who have ADHD, social anxiety and rejection sensitivity dysphoria, they create in their heads, something is wrong with me that I don't have seven friends, that I have two.
Pete Wright:
Yes.
Dr. Sharon Saline:
Instead of aren't I so lucky? I have these two friends who totally accept me and we can do things together.
Pete Wright:
Right? I could be very, very quick to paint that picture. And it's exacerbated by the fact that I don't actually work with very many people in real life, it's me and my dog.
Nikki Kinzer:
Right.
Pete Wright:
Plus a lot of videos, a lot of small screens. And so I think that painting hangs in a prominent place in my head gallery and makes it very, very easy to further cement that fear of examining other opportunities to see people who are just like me. That RSD is funny and horrible that it sneaks up around corners I don't expect to feel rejected. Right? It's insidious, it's poisonous.
Dr. Sharon Saline:
And then what happens is there's a part of us that we just go down the shame spiral into the pit of I don't like myself, or worse, I hate myself. I loathe myself. And when you're in that place, community is not something you're thinking about because you don't feel like you're worthy or deserving part of it. And the fact is, we're all worthy of giving love and feeling loved.
Pete Wright:
How do you walk people through the challenge of, as a subset of RSD, the challenge of feeling one comment is the neutron bomb of rejection, even in a sea of praise? I'm thinking about people who get a review with a critique on it at work that might not be in favor. I mean, that can-
Dr. Sharon Saline:
There's five points about how great you are and one point of something you could work on.
Pete Wright:
But here's the one, your TPS reports aren't quite straight, so get that right, and suddenly you feel like you might as well quit the job.
Dr. Sharon Saline:
So we as humans have a negativity bias in our brains, and that's actually kept us alive for the millennia. And so that we're scanning the environment for potential dangers so that we can avoid them and not be eaten by the tiger in the jungle. So now today, there aren't necessarily tigers in the jungle, but what there are are other kinds of interactions that we interpret that way. So we interpret the sixth comment on our review as the most important thing. And what we have to do is actually actively talk to ourselves. Talk back to the part of yourself, that stinking thinking. I have a name for that part for me, and it's good to name that part of yourself that Richard Schwartz talks a lot about parts in his work with internal family systems.
And I think for me, coming out of a psychodrama background, being able to concretize that part, name it, picture it, describe it, write it down, draw it, maybe find an image on the internet, and then we want to do the same thing with the part of ourselves that actually believes in ourselves, the five other things on that list, because we have to train ourselves to look at those five things. And that's very difficult if you don't have a history of doing that, or if you didn't grow up in a family system where people told you those things.
Nikki Kinzer:
So this is where the curiosity I think can come into play too, as part of that strategy when you're talking to yourself, what are some questions that you could ask yourself in that situation when you're... To me, I'm looking at this dragon that's spitting fire at me. What are some questions that listeners could ask themselves?
Dr. Sharon Saline:
Well, I actually think it's less of a question and more of statements.
Nikki Kinzer:
Oh, good, okay.
Dr. Sharon Saline:
We don't want to ask that negative part anything.
Nikki Kinzer:
Right.
Dr. Sharon Saline:
We need to shrink it. And the way we're going to shrink it is by talking back to it.
Nikki Kinzer:
Oh, okay, yeah.
Dr. Sharon Saline:
So we're going to say, you've created a story about this situation. We need to check that out with someone else to get some perspective. You could say, "Zoom out." Zoom, zoom out as far back as you can so that you can look at this situation from a wider lens. You might say to yourself, "I am not good at receiving positive feedback, so I'm going to focus on the thing that is what I need to change, rather than receiving the positive from the situation." Or even something simple like, "Whoa, worry monster, sit down. I need to get more facts. Then if you are right, what we can run with what you're saying, but if you're wrong, I'm going over here with my inner ally."
Pete Wright:
Yeah. I feel like this is a mantra I need to continue to talk about because it's that exercise of living inside of fact and truth and actually going through the, here's the stuff I know that I can verify as fact. Everything else is in a completely different bucket because everything else is unverified story, and I can pour it out. I can pour it out. But I feel like it's a high calorie burn activity to actually filter when I'm in, as our mutual friend James Ochoa says, when I'm in a storm. When I'm in an emotional storm.
Dr. Sharon Saline:
Exactly. And it's very hard to do, which is why it's great to have a coach or a therapist whose voice you can hear in your head. Something happened to me this week and I was upset, and I took my dog for a walk, and I actually heard the voice of someone that has helped me over the years basically say, "You can't be everything to everybody, it's okay." And I really literally was saying that to myself as I'm walking in the park, and some things don't work out, and that doesn't mean that you're a failure, it just wasn't the right time. That's where the zooming out helps me. It's like there is something that has to be greater than what's happening right now. And if this thing is not materializing for me, then maybe it wasn't meant to, but something else is waiting for me.
Nikki Kinzer:
Growth mindset.
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Dr. Sharon Saline:
Yeah, all about the growth mindset, Nikki.
Pete Wright:
Right.
Nikki Kinzer:
Love that.
Pete Wright:
And it allows us to move on from what ultimately amount to paper cuts like insignificance.
Dr. Sharon Saline:
Right. I mean, with people with ADHD experience, the trauma of a thousand little paper cuts because they accumulate over time into a wound. But we as adult people can really work with what's the younger person inside of us, the part that is feeling afraid, or is worried that you don't measure up by saying things back to that essence of stinking thinking. It's okay. It's not great. And that's the other thing, it's like, yeah, this feels bad. It's okay this feels bad. It's not the end of the world. It's just uncomfortable.
Pete Wright:
Yeah. As we're having this conversation, Sharon, you can't see, I'm tying my fingers in knots, and I'm just trying to notice that somatic experience because all I can think about is okay, but back to my storm, I can't see enough with enough clarity to be able to lift myself out of the tornado of a million paper cuts.
Dr. Sharon Saline:
So that's why you actually need to have on your phone and on a post-it or as many places as possible, three things for you to do to soothe yourself in that storm because you have to slow that storm down and figure out how to settle so for me.
Pete Wright:
Before you submit the registration, before you cancel your online accounts. Before.
Dr. Sharon Saline:
Correct.
Pete Wright:
Yeah, okay.
Dr. Sharon Saline:
Correct. So for me, I knew that I was distressed and I took my dog for a walk because it was a beautiful day, and I thought, this will help you shift. If you have children and you've parented children when they're babies and they're screaming their heads off, we ask ourselves a few questions. Are you hungry?
Pete Wright:
Did you poop?
Dr. Sharon Saline:
Maybe thirsty. Do you need a diaper change? Are you tired? And then the last one is, do we need a change in the environment? So maybe I'm just going to take you, baby, and put you in the stroller and take a walk and that will help. You may scream for five minutes of that walk, but I'm going to see what happens. Or I'm just going to go stand outside and allow you to be outside with me and change the environment. And I think we actually have to ask ourselves those questions. Am I hungry or thirsty or whatever? Am I tired?
Pete Wright:
Do I need a diaper change?
Dr. Sharon Saline:
Do I need a diaper change? And how can I change my environment that would assist me in feeling differently? Because we call that a healthy distraction, because when you're in the middle of a storm, you actually need to distract yourself. And the way we want to do that is I have a playlist of happy songs. I have a playlist of angry songs depending on my mood, and then I'll listen to that. Or I may have a couple five-minute yoga things that I like to do, or I have some friends on speed dial who I call, and even if they don't answer, I leave a message and say, "Hey, I'm struggling. When you get a chance, could you give me a call?"
As I've had COVID in my household for the last two and a half, almost three weeks, I have called my friends, and this is not easy for me to do and said, "I'm having a really hard time. COVID is messing with my brain. I'm feeling depressed and I'm isolated and I can't leave my house." I mean, literally having to reach out and ask people, and some of them showed up and some of them didn't, and the ones who didn't, that's not about me, maybe they just don't have it in them right now. So I can pay attention to those who did and I did, and I was super grateful and I called them all the minute that I tested negative and thanked them profusely.
Pete Wright:
For still being there.
Dr. Sharon Saline:
For still being there.
Pete Wright:
That's as much of a thank you as it is a reminder to yourself that you have a community.
Dr. Sharon Saline:
Correct.
Nikki Kinzer:
Yes.
Dr. Sharon Saline:
And that's why it's important to have a community, a community of people who get you, who see you for who you are, and love you for all of your amazingness and your warts too.
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Dr. Sharon Saline:
Literally, one of my best friends who has been with me really by my side these last few weeks, this summer, we had a little party and I was all super excited and she just tapped me on the shoulder and she said, "Can you slow it down?" And I was like, "Okay, I have two choices here. I can slow it down and appreciate her for asking, for telling me, or I can feel like crap that I was too excited and she noticed." It was a little of both, to be honest.
Nikki Kinzer:
Sure, yeah.
Dr. Sharon Saline:
But that was a loving thing that she said to me. If it was annoying her, I'm sure it was annoying other people.
Pete Wright:
Right.
Nikki Kinzer:
Well, and what you just did is I could see you thinking about talking to yourself. How do I talk to myself about this situation? I have this choice, or I have this choice.
Dr. Sharon Saline:
Correct.
Nikki Kinzer:
And it was both, but you figured out how you were going to respond. It's just really going back to what you're saying is to have that internal conversation with yourself when something like that happens, right?
Dr. Sharon Saline:
Right.
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah.
Dr. Sharon Saline:
Because here's the thing, and I've said this before on the show, but I'm going to say it again. If you talk to yourself in a way that you would never talk to a third grader with a skinned knee, you are actually causing yourself harm. You're actively hurting yourself. That is not self-care. It's self cruelty.
Pete Wright:
Self cruelty, ouch.
Dr. Sharon Saline:
One of my most-
Nikki Kinzer:
That's harsh. That's a reality check.
Dr. Sharon Saline:
But it is true. It is true.
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah, it is true. It is true.
Dr. Sharon Saline:
And there may be plenty of things you don't like about yourself. That's fine. I come up with three that are okay or good. And so because that is what people like about you. Unless you live alone in a cave, I'm sure there are people in your life who like something about you. Maybe they're at your religious organization, maybe just the person who checks out your books at the library and says, "Wow, you pick the most interesting books." Whatever it is, we have to hold onto that because the world will take it away very quickly.
Nikki Kinzer:
Such good reminders.
Pete Wright:
It's such good reminders, and especially the idea learning of being able to reflect the good things, three good things about yourself in a universe, in a brain that often can't see it very clearly. That's another thing to add to your phone, right? By the way, Pete, you can be quick on your feet with a joke. You probably smell like peanut butter right now, and that's good. And also.
Nikki Kinzer:
And you're smart and you're caring.
Dr. Sharon Saline:
And you are authentic.
Pete Wright:
Well, I'll take that.
Dr. Sharon Saline:
You're real. You're real, Nikki, you are curious and you're warm and you're caring. Your empathy is just, it comes right through, and so smart. So we want to hear those things and I want you to take them in.
Nikki Kinzer:
Well, you're very wise and very inspirational, that's for sure. Wow, such good stuff.
Dr. Sharon Saline:
I'm going to try to take that in. Thank you.
Nikki Kinzer:
Yes.
Pete Wright:
For sure. You're a fantastic role model for all of us. Thank you, thank you, thank you for hanging out with us in spite of having COVID for the last two and a half weeks.
Dr. Sharon Saline:
Negative for two days, babe.
Pete Wright:
I'll take it, it is so great. What are you working on right now besides healing?
Dr. Sharon Saline:
I am actually working on a book proposal.
Pete Wright:
Outstanding.
Dr. Sharon Saline:
I'm doing a lot of presentations right now, so I'm working on those, but I'm also working on a book proposal about ADHD and anxiety.
Nikki Kinzer:
Oh, good. That's needed.
Dr. Sharon Saline:
It needs to happen. It needs to happen two years ago.
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah. For all the things that we said today.
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Dr. Sharon Saline:
Exactly.
Nikki Kinzer:
Right.
Pete Wright:
Right.
Nikki Kinzer:
That's great.
Dr. Sharon Saline:
That's my goal. I've set aside a weekend in October in two or three weeks. Two weeks I guess, and that is I'm going to touch up my proposal and send it off to my agent and have my fingers crossed someone will want to make a book out of it.
Pete Wright:
Outstanding. We'll read that.
Nikki Kinzer:
We have our fingers crossed too.
Pete Wright:
For sure. Where do you want people to learn more about your stuff?
Dr. Sharon Saline:
At my website, www.drsharonsaline.com. Sign up for my newsletter, comes out twice a month. I cut back from weekly because I felt like it was a little bit too much for people. There are original blogs that are free that you can access on my website. I also have a YouTube channel, which has a lot of great material, and you could be my Facebook or Instagram friend forever, and I'll be so grateful. It's where you can find out a lot about what's going on, and I post inspirational things all the time, little videos and sayings, and of course, I am pleased to say that I do a Facebook Live twice a month with Attitude magazine.
Nikki Kinzer:
Oh, great.
Dr. Sharon Saline:
Which is really a great place to just join the community. You don't have to reveal yourself. You can show up and not tell me who you are. You can show up and put your name and say, "Hi, I am from such and such a place," and not ask any questions or make a comment. But it's a very accepting place and it's a good way to learn more about ADHD. So these are all things that are happening in my world, and I'd love you to join me.
Pete Wright:
All the links in the show notes. Sharon is the best. Go follow Sharon everywhere. She's fantastic. Thank you, Sharon. Hall of Famer, freshly minted Hall of Famer.
Nikki Kinzer:
Yay.
Dr. Sharon Saline:
Yay.
Pete Wright:
Thank you everybody for hanging out with us. Thank you for downloading and listening to this show, thank you for your time and your attention. Don't forget, if you have something to contribute to this conversation, we're heading over to the Show Talk channel in our Discord server, and you can join us right there by becoming a supporting member at the Deluxe level or better. On behalf of Dr. Sharon Saline and Nikki Kinzer, I'm Pete Wright, and we'll see you right back here next week on Taking Control: The ADHD Podcast.
Done.
