ADHD & the Non-ADHD Partner with Dr. Ari Tuckman
Over the last few weeks, we have been exploring different topics related to our relationships and how we interact with others. Today, we welcome Dr. Ari Tuckman for a conversation about the relationship dynamic with one ADHD partner and one non-ADHD partner.
From the ADHD partner who sees their non-ADHD counterpart as a savior to the frustrated couple struggling to bridge the communication gap, Tuckman explores the full spectrum of experiences that define these relationships. He delves into the emotional challenges that both partners face, offering a tantalizing glimpse into the world of resentment, shame, fear, and burnout that can threaten even the strongest of bonds.
But Tuckman's exploration is not just a catalogue of challenges; it's a beacon of hope. He teases practical strategies and insights that promise to help couples navigate this complex terrain, hinting at the transformative power of communication, understanding, and compromise.
Links & Notes
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Pete Wright:
Hello, everybody, and welcome to Taking Control: The ADHD Podcast on TruStory FM. I'm Pete Wright, and I'm here with Nikki Kinzer.
Nikki Kinzer:
Hello, everyone. Hello, Pete Wright.
Pete Wright:
Oh Nikki, this one is for the two of us. Selfishly, this episode-
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah, but opposite.
Pete Wright:
Yeah, but opposite. Yeah, for sure. I'm very excited about this conversation. We're going to be talking about ... We've been talking about relationships on the show for the last several episodes. And we've talked about kids, parents. We just haven't yet talked about, really, our relationships, the relationship we're in, where we have one of the partners has ADHD and the other doesn't. I cannot think of a better individual to join us this week to help us talk about it.
Before we dig in though, let me tell you a little bit about the show. Make sure you head over to takecontroladhd.com to get to know us a little bit better. You can listen to the show right there on the website or subscribe to the mailing list, and we'll send you an email each time a new episode is released. You can connect with us on Facebook or Instagram or Pinterest at Take Control ADHD, and Discord. Don't forget the Discord. That's our ADHD Discord community. It's super easy to jump into the general community chat channel. It's open to everyone. Just visit takecontroladhd.com/discord and you will be whisked over to the general invitation and login.
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Ari Tuckman is a psychologist, a certified sex therapist, an international speaker, and author of four books on ADHD. Over the last few weeks, as I said, we've been talking about relationships and how we interact with others. Well, today, we want to talk to Ari about the relationship dynamic with one ADHD partner and one non-ADHD partner. Ari, welcome back to the ADHD podcast.
Dr. Ari Tuckman:
It is awesome to hang out with you guys.
Pete Wright:
We're excited to have you back. And the last time you were on the show, thanks to historian and both Nikki and my spiritual manager, Melissa, the last time you were on the show was in 2022. A lot seems to might have happened since 2022. Anything in your life changed? Are you okay?
Dr. Ari Tuckman:
I'm good, I'm good. The only thing is I forgot to bring socks to the gym today. So I'm sort of rocking the Miami Vice look, which feels as good as it looks, so that's cool. But otherwise, I'm good.
Pete Wright:
Ari, talking about rocking the Miami Vice look may be a new perfect clip for this show. I am so excited that you said that while recording.
Dr. Ari Tuckman:
We're off to a strong start, folks. We're off to a strong start.
Nikki Kinzer:
That's right.
Pete Wright:
So we're talking about our listeners. Many of our listeners who have ADHD share their stories about their experiences with non-ADHD partners one way or another. As we said, both Nikki and I are in similar relationships. We relate to those relationships. Can you set the table for us? What are we looking at when we're looking at a relationship, mixed relationship like this?
Dr. Ari Tuckman:
Sure. So obviously, we bring all of ourself to our relationships. And if somebody has ADHD, it's that, you bring that, but also all the rest of who you are. And that hopefully is mostly good and also sometimes is annoying and aggravating. But the challenge I think for any couple is, how do you work well together? How do you work towards some common goals, not every single goal, but mostly common goals? How do you negotiate differences? How do you tolerate the parts of each other that are probably not going to change?
So this is universal, I think, for every couple, but when ADHD is in the mix, and especially if it hasn't been diagnosed and it's therefore probably not being well managed, it can really throw a monkey wrench in the things that the couple needs to do, and it can lead to certain kind of ... obviously every couple is different, but there's certainly some things that tend to show up. And it just changes the dynamics and the interactions between the couple in some rather common ways.
Nikki Kinzer:
What are those ways? I'm curious, and I'm curious selfishly, because I know where I experience it, but I want to know where other people experience it. And I'm coming from I do not have ADHD; my partner does. Pete is coming from he has ADHD, but his partner does not.
Dr. Ari Tuckman:
Yeah. I mean, the sort of simplest first level of this is if you have ADHD and you're not managing it well, you're probably going to have more trouble checking the boxes on the obligations of responsibilities that you have. So I mean, that's going to show up at school when you're a student, it's going to show up at work, it's going to show up in your personal life when you're single. But when it shows up in your life, when you're partnered up, and especially when you have a lot of responsibilities, so you have jobs and kids and a house to take care of, it's like, I don't know, let's be honest, it's really hard for the non-ADHD partner to just sort of sit there and say, "Well, he'll probably pay the mortgage, I guess."
So what happens is the non-ADHD partner often then begins to take on more of that responsibility because they start getting anxious. They see the things that aren't getting done. They start having concerns about it before the person with ADHD does. And this is the ADHD in the sense that folks with ADHD, they don't feel the future as strongly. You got to get a whole lot closer to it before you feel that pressure of the deadline and then activate upon it. The challenge is the non-ADHD partner too often gets there first, right? They hit their breaking point and they are then, in quotes, "always" the one who has to be responsible for everything.
Then when the partner with ADHD does do some stuff, usually or too often it feels like it's too late, not exactly what the other person wanted. They didn't do it in the best way. So then they're sort of being criticized, which can create this feeling of, "I don't know why you bother anyway, you're not going to be happy regardless." And then it's just this kind of awful, tense standoff, tug of war kind of situation where neither partner is happy about it, but also nobody knows how to change it. So you have these heartfelt discussions of, "I really need you to step up because I'm so stressed out."
"I definitely will. I just need you to be nicer to me." And they mean it, but if you're not addressing the ADHD, if you don't have the better tools and systems, you're going to get three days out of that before we're back to the same stuff that got us in trouble yesterday.
Pete Wright:
That's the thing that's so interesting to me about this, because the curse of intermittent reinforcement for the non-ADHD partner, that there are days where I'm hitting homers all day long. And the expectation then grows that I will be consistent, and consistent is exactly the thing I'm not in certain important areas in the relationship.
Dr. Ari Tuckman:
Yeah. "Hey, remember that one time you did that? Okay, now do it forever unto eternity."
Pete Wright:
Yeah, exactly. So you're doing laundry all the time every Sunday from 7:00 to 12:00 and getting it all folded and put it away, right? Is that what you're doing? That's not what I end up doing, right? That's not what I end up doing. And on the flip side, there is this ... you can look at the non-ADHD partner with sort of a savior complex, right, like, "Thank goodness they're here. They take care of everything." And there's an undue burden.
Dr. Ari Tuckman:
Yeah, yeah. I mean, look, we're not assigned partners; I mean, most of us. We pick each other for reasons. And hopefully those are mostly good reasons. But I mean, there is some complementarity I think often in this, in the sense that usually in these couples, at least the ones who show up in my office, the ones who are doing great and happy, they don't come and pay me. So I get a select sample. But the non-ADHD partner often is kind of good at being on top of stuff. They like things being done in certain ways, which is totally fine. And they feel more comfortable when things have been taken care of because then it's off their mental radar.
So that's the good side. They're good at managing responsibilities of life, but there is also something here that if you live with another person, sometimes they're going to do things the way that they're going to do it, and that we also need to be flexible sometimes about like, "Well, that's not how I would do it, or I would do it this other way. But okay, fine, I'm going to let this go." And it can be hard for the non-ADHD partners sometimes to begin to let things go. Now in their defense, Pete, as you said, if the partner with ADHD has given them 1,000 examples of it doesn't work out when they let it go, it's easy to point at that and say, "Of course I can't let it go. You're not going to step up." But also, then it sort of shackles them to all these obligations that they kind of don't want, but they do want them done in a certain way. So it's a real dilemma for them.
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah. It's interesting because one of the things that you said which I think is really true, is they don't necessarily see it or see whatever's happening. So a particular, specific example is we have two bathrooms that have paint that has just started but never finished. And I think [inaudible 00:10:42]-
Dr. Ari Tuckman:
Right. Look, you don't need all four walls painted. Just one or two is enough.
Nikki Kinzer:
That's good.
Dr. Ari Tuckman:
Just only turn your head one direction.
Pete Wright:
We were going for Pollock, right?
Nikki Kinzer:
Right, right. And it's like three different colors too, because we're trying to figure out what color. So it's not even the same color.
Dr. Ari Tuckman:
Nice.
Nikki Kinzer:
It's like three different in two different bathrooms. And we were laughing about it the other day, and I didn't realize that it's been that way for two years. And so obviously that's not just on him, because I didn't do anything about it. But it's just amazing how long something like that can go on, and you just stop noticing it until it's put back into your attention. And now I want them painted.
Pete Wright:
Now it's all you can see, right. Well, I think that's really interesting, because that relationship, again, when you talk, Ari, about how we choose our partners, how often does it feel like partners take on their partner's behavior characteristics, right? Like Nikki maybe on her own would not be blind to the, quote, "accent wall," but because she loves her husband and they have a great relationship, does that happen? I mean, is that a thing? As she's talking about it, I'm thinking of examples in my own relationship where that absolutely happens: "Oh my gosh, I am a curse. I'm infectious."
Dr. Ari Tuckman:
Right, right. I mean, some of it is the idea of picking your battles, which is a thing we all have to do, because we all have more ideas than time. So in terms of the bathroom, on the one hand, it might be a thing where it's like, "Yeah, that does kind of annoy me, but also, I got other things that are more important. I'm not picking this one," right?
Nikki Kinzer:
Exactly, yeah.
Dr. Ari Tuckman:
But on the other hand, it might be that you're like, "You know what? Enough is enough," or I don't know, we're having people over for Memorial Day or something, and I just need these done. So it's easy in that kind of a situation, especially if you're feeling really burned out and frustrated and resentful and disconnected, which it sounds like you're not, so that's awesome for you guys, but if you were ... often by the time they show up in my office ... where it's easy to just come at him and just be like, "Here it is yet again. You're failing me. You don't do this stuff. I don't know why I trust you. You say you're going to do stuff and you don't," and just sort of hammering at him. And then of course, predictably, he's going to go into, "I don't have time. I can't do it. I'm doing all this other stuff. You're asking me to do this and that. And I do my best, and it's never good" ... And it's completely unsatisfying. Both people feel worse.
So it might then be a situation where for the person, Nikki, in your shoes, to first say, "Is this important enough to me that I want to make a thing of it?" And sometimes the answer is no, as we said. But let's say the answer is yes, it is, this is important to me, to then have a really direct conversation about it and say, "This is making me nuts. I would really, really appreciate if you could finish it. What do we need to do to make that happen," meaning, let's actually think about a time that it could happen, let's actually think about what else needs to happen to clear that time.
So if you say, "I'll do it this weekend," well, okay, do you have any idea what's actually already on the schedule this weekend? Oh, wait, the kids have a soccer tournament all day Saturday and Sunday? No, you're not doing it this weekend. Or can you set boundaries with family and friends and work and say, "Look, Saturday, I can't do anything. Sorry, I got to do this thing with the bathroom." So can they hold those boundaries? Can they, I don't know, go to bed early enough Friday night so they get up early enough Saturday? Do they have any idea where the paintbrushes are? Do they have the right paint? Do they know what the right paint is? Have they done the prep that needs to dry before you can put paint?
It's all of these things, but to actually really have that conversation and to really figure out, yes, I can do this and here are the steps I'm going to take to make it happen, or, "Honey, no, I can't. I'm sorry, this is not meant to be," or, "I just don't want to, I would rather do this other thing. So let's have a discussion about what we're doing here." But that's a much more direct, honest, well-informed conversation rather than just harping or saying yes with no thought, and then predictably it doesn't work out.
Nikki Kinzer:
Work, because I think what you're saying too is that's giving the other spouse an understanding of ADHD, because what you just explained is what I would coach with someone, right, like, "Okay, if you're going to paint this weekend, let's figure out, what are all the steps to paint?" So we have this understanding of the executive functions are not working so we want to help them figure that out. And I find with my partner, my husband, if I tell him what I want, he'll do it. I just can't pretend ... not pretend. I cannot expect him to know.
Dr. Ari Tuckman:
Yes, it's called use your words.
Nikki Kinzer:
I do need to tell him. Yes. He cannot read my mind. So I have to be very specific. And if I'm very specific, it will get done. So I like what you're saying because it's really a matter of understanding how the ADHD is affecting this person and then what we need to do to be clear to get it done, unless they don't want to do it for some reason.
Pete Wright:
But there's always a ... Let's throw money at the problem. Painting a small bathroom is something that we could take care of, and I also don't have to do it. I think the challenge ... And I'm going to put myself in your husband's shoes, because I know for a while he worked his way through college or something as a painter, right?
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah, he's a really good painter.
Pete Wright:
The dude knows how to paint.
Nikki Kinzer:
He could do it in an hour.
Pete Wright:
Right. Now, if I were in his shoes and happened to have that skill ... So let's just be in a fantasy world right now together. And it had grown invisible to me because I prioritized other things, and you hadn't said anything specific, so all these things are happening, and then you come to me and say, "Hey, we should really wrap up that bathroom. Do you want to just hire somebody to do it," I would feel like you dropped a lead anvil on my chest, because suddenly the months or years of forgetting to do it would crash into me like a wave of rejection. And that's all I would be able to experience at that moment. All at once, that earned interest on two years of forgetting gets paid back in my own interpretation of rejection. Am I alone?
Dr. Ari Tuckman:
Yeah, no, I think that totally makes sense. And I think that that is then really important for you to recognize, "This is mine. She is not making me feel guilty. I feel guilty from within myself, from the recognition of what I haven't done before now." So then your job is to sort of manage that. I mean, this is all easy to say, right? And this doesn't happen in a moment. But it's to manage that and then have a conversation about "Are we going to hire someone? Am I doing it? Am I just going to cut on this one and say, 'Just hire someone. I'm just done with this.'"
But that's where it gets really muddy and entangled. And I think particularly in this case, Nikki, if you were just building resentment and just every time you went into the bathroom, it just chucked a coin on the pile of like, "I'm so pissed about this," at that point, you wouldn't say, "Honey, I know you've been so busy and I love you so much. I really want to make your life easier. I think you should have time on the weekends to do fun things. I'm just going to hire some guy." That's not how it's going to come out. So you're going to make it really easy for him to feel guilty about it, and also maybe to blame you for being kind of a bitch about it, or whatever.
So there is all this other stuff that gets more complicated in relationships, which is not at all unique to ADHD, but ADHD can throw some gas on that fire. But I think it's also important in a situation like this, maybe it is an ADHD thing, but also, maybe it isn't, right? So the ways it's ADHD related is if your husband said, "Yes, I'll do it," and then he forgot he had other things, or he didn't check his schedule, or he got distracted, or he mismanaged his time, or he procrastinated, or he forgot to check if he had the right paint and the right amount, that would be ADHD reasons why he didn't get it done.
But there are other reasons like just, I don't know, having a different sort of priority, of saying, "I'm not actually that interested in doing the bathroom. I mean, I know, yeah, it looks ridiculous, but seriously, there's other things I would rather do." That's not ADHD. Or if you say, "I really want you to do the bathroom," and he's like, "I do not want to do the bathroom," but also, I don't really want to have a fight with you right now about it, so I'm going to go, "Okay, I guess." And then lo and behold, on Saturday morning, the fight comes with interest. So that's a conflict avoidance problem. That's a negotiation problem. Or if you say, "I want you to do it," and he's like, "Um," and then you rear up and clearly you're like fire in your eyes and he's like, "Oh man, I'm not touching this one," again, that's a negotiation problem. That's not an ADHD problem. So I think it's important to know what is going on because that's going to direct you towards what you do with it. You know what I mean?
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
Pete Wright:
What's so interesting, I mean, obviously so much of this is learning to communicate as a couple. Some of what I value in my relationship is, and I say this with a well-earned spirit of entitlement on myself, is that my wife took it upon herself to understand ADHD and my relationship with it. And as a result, I don't feel like it's an undue burden for the two of us to have a conversation in which she is catering both to our relationship needs, but also to my ADHD. And I'm wondering, again, all the way back to we choose each other, how much of this, and I don't want to call it a burden, maybe a responsibility, maybe an honor, does it fall on the non-ADHD spouse to really learn what is ADHD and what is relationship stuff? Because we need to communicate about both of those things in potentially different ways.
Dr. Ari Tuckman:
Sure. So I think it's an awesome question, and here's my answer to it. If it feels like she's working harder at it than you are, then that's a setup for trouble. Then she will appropriately get resentful at some point. On the other hand, when it comes to some of this stuff, if she is happier with the outcome, so if you guys are talking about it and she's like, "You know what? Grab your phone, look at your calendar. Let's see what you got," or, "Wait a second, what's up with the soccer schedule? Can you look that up before we agree? Can you just take a look at that? Oh, we are doing this. Okay, here, put this into your calendar, or write down a list. We need rollers and I think we need some spackle. So write that down. When are you going to get to Home Depot to get it," that's not her being your mom. That's her setting up her own happiness, right? She is more likely to get what she wants. And the relatively little effort of having this part of the conversation has big payoffs in terms of a bathroom that's actually painted by Sunday night.
Pete Wright:
Right, and thereby setting up my happiness too, right?
Dr. Ari Tuckman:
Yes.
Pete Wright:
Because I will have a feeling of accomplishment and she will have helped ease me into a project in a way that my brain doesn't naturally do.
Dr. Ari Tuckman:
Yeah. And your job is to not be a surly oppositional teenager and being like, "I don't need you to" ... It's like, "No, dude, you do. Shut up. You do. Don't be a jerk." Now granted, if you feel like she's being a bit too much, then you should be like, "Honey, seriously, I got this." So both people got their part. We both got to do our part. And I kind of say you can't expect your partner to behave better than you do.
Nikki Kinzer:
So when that resentment starts to build and they're in your office, what kind of advice do you give this couple? How do they work through this, especially when they have such strong feelings? I mean, assuming by the time they're in your office, they're pretty upset.
Dr. Ari Tuckman:
Yeah, yeah. I mean, there's a long history of hurt there. So I'm going to take a line from a couple's therapy trainer who's just an absolute master, named Ellyn Bader. And she talks about making a clean request. So a clean request is, first of all, specific about what you're asking, so in other words, not, "I need you to do more around here." Am I dusting the baseboards? Am I loading the dishwasher? What are we doing? So specific in what you're asking. It stays on only one topic, because if you cross three or four topics, you're not going to address them all. And it doesn't get into tone or justification, because the problem is if you throw a bunch of attitude, you're a lot more likely to get your partner defensive and argumentative and a lot less likely to actually be heard. And it just gives your partner too many other things to debate and argue.
So really being specific about, "I would like the bathroom painted. It really makes me crazy to see it half done. I feel like I have way too many half done things in my life. I need to get it off of my list. Maybe you don't see it, and that's fine, but I see it. Every time I go in there, it makes me a little bit crazy. And I just need to feel like I have a little bit more order in my life, and I don't have 4,000 open projects in my mind." So explaining why it's important, talking about yourself: "This is what it does for me." Not saying, "You're so irresponsible, you don't care. You don't do these things. I'm always the one," because now you've changed the subject, right? We're not talking about the bathroom. Now we're talking about your partner, whether he's a jerk or not.
Pete Wright:
When we're talking about skills, about skills to figure out ... I'm in a state of duress, not knowing how my level of communication has veered off track with this person that doesn't seem to understand my ADHD anymore. What does it take to close that gap, to bridge that gap between us again? They're sitting on your couch.
Dr. Ari Tuckman:
Yeah. So the other side of that clean request would be then for the receiving person to hear it well, which Pete, back to what you were saying, all that other stuff that came up, for you to keep your head on with that. And it might mean to say, "I need a minute here," rather than talking out in anger and frustration, defensiveness. But I think that in general, especially when people are new to the diagnosis, it really does come as a relief of, "I'm not a terrible person. You're not a terrible person. It's that we didn't know about this ADHD thing that's really made a mess for us. We both tried, but not in the right ways. And more importantly, now there's some hope for a better future. Now that we know this, we can address it more directly. We can do some things about it. We can find better ways to work together towards some common goals."
So I think there is a lot of hope in a new diagnosis of ADHD, whether it's about an adult or a child. It can really change the dynamic. And I sort of have this line where I say, it is a lot to ask your partner to take medication for ADHD, or whatever, but let's say ADHD. That is a lot to ask of someone. But I think equally, it's a lot to ask of someone to sort of overlook or compensate for the symptoms of ADHD that you're not treating. So that's also a lot to ask. This is what makes relationships hard, is we get stuck with these kinds of thorny questions that don't have obvious answers.
Nikki Kinzer:
Okay, so I'm going to throw another question that doesn't have an obvious answer, but I'm sure you've seen it in your work.
Pete Wright:
This is a setup, Ari. Run away.
Nikki Kinzer:
Run away.
Dr. Ari Tuckman:
Good, good. I can take it. We're on the same team. It's going to be fine.
Nikki Kinzer:
When we were talking about parenting ADHD children, like I have a daughter who has ADHD as well, and I was saying I'm biased because I have the knowledge of ADHD. I understand it. I work with people. I want to help people. So I'm very empathetic to her and to my husband. So they're very lucky to have me. I'm just going to say that.
Pete Wright:
Yes, I know [inaudible 00:29:10] so much. Every day should be Mother's Day in your house.
Nikki Kinzer:
Exactly. But let's say I didn't have that experience, and you have ... Well, actually, take me out of it. You have a couple that is in your office, and the non-ADHD partner is just not willing to understand ADHD. They don't want to look at the books. They don't want to listen to the podcast that I've been asked to listen to. They just don't care, or maybe they care, but they don't. You know what I mean? How do you work with that?
Dr. Ari Tuckman:
Yeah. And I would actually say, I don't know if it's necessarily that they don't care, so much as they don't get it. They don't understand. So one of the points I always sort of hammer on is if you're asking your partner or someone to read or listen or to educate themselves about ADHD somehow, they are not doing that as a favor to you, the person with ADHD. And that often in these cases, the non-ADHD partner feels kind of burned out, overburdened, "I've already done too much. I don't have it to give. You need to go figure out this ADHD thing, and then let me know how it goes."
So the sales pitch here is you, non-ADHD partner, you learning about this is going to make your life better. It's going to change how you understand your partner. It's going to change the strategies you use and how you resolve your differences so you will get more of what you want. It's not going to be everything. It's not going to change your partner to someone they're not, but you are going to be much happier as a result of this. So that is the sales pitch. You don't have to do anything. You have zero obligation to learn anything about ADHD or change one lick of what you do. But if you do nothing, you are then accepting the fact that you are removing 50% of the power to make things better in this relationship, that you're basically saying, "I'm a bystander on the sidelines to this. My partner needs to do all the work, and then I'm going to really cross my fingers and hope that they do it."
So that's the deal, and that's the deal for every relationship, is nothing happens in a vacuum. Again, you cannot expect your partner to behave better than you do. And if you just sort of sit on the sidelines and hope that they're going to do it and keep doing it and keep doing and keep doing it, I mean, they might, but I think it's a lot less likely to go as far as you would hope it to.
Pete Wright:
I've got a question about language, because you said earlier something that's obviously really important is keeping the statements about us, "I am experiencing the bathroom in such a way that I could use some help figuring it out," keeping the statements about me. But for those of us with ADHD who struggle with social cues and struggle with language cues, those sorts of statements are very positive. Do you have any statements that are particularly triggering in relationships that potentially you may not even know you're using?
Dr. Ari Tuckman:
Yeah, I think just in general, anytime that you're telling your partner about who they are, that is really likely to evoke defensiveness, unless they're having really good conversation, and I have faith that you're saying it with good intent, if you know what I mean. So things like if your wife was like, "You just don't care about our house, that's why you haven't" ... or, "You don't care that I'm unhappy," right [inaudible 00:33:04]-
Pete Wright:
When the world goes second person, right, that's a problem.
Dr. Ari Tuckman:
Right, as opposed to, "It seems like you don't notice that it's not" ... or I don't know, "It seems to me like it doesn't really bother you." And you might say like, "Yeah, truthfully, sitting here right now, I have no idea what color paint is on any of the walls in the bathroom, and I can live a good life like that." Or maybe it's like, "No, honestly, it bugs the hell out of me. Seriously, every time I walk past it, it makes me feel a little bit awful."
I don't know what's going on, but let's actually ask questions rather than make statements about things like that, so that you better understand. And if the answer is, "I feel awful about it," then maybe the response is, "Good. We're on the same team. Let's do something about it." If the answer is, "Honestly, I don't care, it's fine," okay, that's cool that you don't have to feel bad about it, but I feel bad about it. And since we're good teammates and we're generous to each other, I'm going to ask you to do something helpful to me on this even if you don't care about it.
Nikki Kinzer:
Ask questions instead of statements. That's huge. I think that's a really important key takeaway, because as soon as you start asking the questions, you're starting to get more information. And it's a lot less defensive at that point.
Pete Wright:
And when I'm compromised, my ADHD exerts itself in statements. That's interesting.
Dr. Ari Tuckman:
Yeah, yeah. There's a lot less filter and perspective and distance, which is true for all of us when we're tired, when we're revved up, when we're just spent for the day. There's just less filter.
Pete Wright:
Yeah, for sure. Somebody's struggling in their relationship, how do they know it's time to seek your help?
Dr. Ari Tuckman:
I think if you keep having all the same fights, like you've done what you can do in terms of educating yourself about ADHD and about relationships, and you've really thought about, what is my part and what do I need to do different? What can I do different? What are the things that are hard stops for me that I will not do this different? You've done your best to have some better conversations about it. And hopefully there's some progress, things do get better in some ways. But you're just sort of stuck and you're not getting to a point that you would like it to be. But what I would really tell you is if you're going to go and do couples therapy, a good couples therapist is going to challenge both of you. We always have a secret agenda when we go to couples therapy that the couples therapist is going to turn to our partner and say, "You're screwing it all up. This is all on you, my man. Step up."
Nikki Kinzer:
They're going to be on my side, yeah.
Dr. Ari Tuckman:
Right, right. "I'm just going to make my case, and boy, are they going to see it my way." And that is not what happens. So even if the partner with ADHD is clearly making a mess all over the place, it's still only half the relationship. So if you're going to go to couples therapy, do it with the expectation that you are going to have to do half the work. Also, your partner is going to have to do half the work. If your partner won't go, which sometimes they won't, then you go by yourself. But rather than just complaining about your partner and getting a lot of like, "Wow, that's awful," what is my part? What am I contributing? What can I do different? How do I act with integrity here? And don't just slip into the complaining, because that might sort of feel good in the moment, but it doesn't change anything.
Nikki Kinzer:
Well, and I mean-
Pete Wright:
That's funny. The whole act of going to therapy and saying, "I'm here to bear witness to you fixing my partner," cracks me up. Everybody loves that. It's such a great fantasy.
Dr. Ari Tuckman:
I'd like to buy tickets.
Pete Wright:
Yes, exactly.
Nikki Kinzer:
And then your spouse walks away like, "I know, I know, it's all me." And they're just, "Okay, got it." Right.
Pete Wright:
Yes, and then you're left sitting alone in the therapist's office. That's really the sign that you didn't do the work.
Nikki Kinzer:
But one thing I do want to say, because I know our conversation is really leaning more like, okay, the ADHD spouse has more problems than the non-ADHD spouse, and that's not true, right?
Dr. Ari Tuckman:
Right.
Nikki Kinzer:
I think it's so half-and-half, because I know I've made a lot of mistakes, and my husband would probably tell you there's just as much that bugs him about me than I get bugged by him. But I think that one of the things that we did when we first got married and we're really good at is we don't fight nasty. I mean, I don't call him names. He's never called me a name. We don't attack each other.
And so when these things happen, like I made a huge financial mistake a couple of years ago and got audited and found out that I made this huge mistake and owed a lot of money, but he didn't make me feel bad about it. And he could have easily said, "I can't believe you did this. How did you not see this? How did the accountant not see this?" So then he put his attention to the accountant, all of this stuff, but I mean, it's very telling, because it's like he gave me just as much grace that I give to him, because a lot of this stuff doesn't bother me. But I think that fighting, it's really important how you argue with your spouse. I mean, do you find that?
Dr. Ari Tuckman:
It's absolutely true. That is 100% of it, because you will absolutely have disagreements, right? Two people do not want all the same things in all the same ways, at all the same times. So absolutely, you're going to have disagreements and disappointments and discontents and all the rest. So you have to be able to handle it in a way that doesn't cause more damage than the topic itself, by being demeaning or dismissive. Whatever the initial problem is nothing compared to the damage done in the way the argument happened, or alternatively, being conflict avoidant and not dealing with anything. And then there's just a simmering tension of all the unspoken. So that's the other end of things that isn't helpful. It's finding that place in the middle.
And the first thing you said, it's really easy for the partner with ADHD to sort of volunteer to be the designated problem in the relationship: "I wouldn't be so whatever if you weren't so much like this. I wouldn't be so angry and controlling or critical if you just did the things that you're supposed to do." So that's easy to see it and to paint it that way, but it's not the truth of it. But it's also, this is why it's important that couples therapists know about ADHD, so they don't fall into that same mindset where they're like, "Dude, man, this guy's got to step up," or like, "Wow, she's such a mess," that their partner really is this sort of long-suffering spouse here.
So part of my shtick of these last five to 10 years has been trying to get more ADHD folks to know about couples therapy and more couples therapists to know about ADHD, because it's still just good couples therapy. But if you don't know ADHD well, you don't know good ways of addressing it, you're not going to be able to help this couple get out of the same breath that they keep falling into, and to not sort of paint the partner with ADHD as the sort of problem to be fixed and ignore the other half of the equation.
Pete Wright:
Yeah, there's a certain responsibility to sustainability of the therapy, right?
Dr. Ari Tuckman:
Yeah.
Pete Wright:
I feel like you're missing so many cues if you're not aware of this ADHD dynamic.
Dr. Ari Tuckman:
Yep. Absolutely.
Nikki Kinzer:
This was great.
Pete Wright:
As usual, you're brilliant. Thanks for hanging out with us today.
Dr. Ari Tuckman:
This was awesome. I was really glad to be able to do this. I always like hanging out with you guys.
Nikki Kinzer:
We like hanging out with you.
Pete Wright:
For sure. I wish that we could do these live. Where do you want to send people right now to find out more about your work, your books, et cetera? What's your pitch?
Dr. Ari Tuckman:
Sure. So adultadhdbook.com, I've got information about my books. I've got samples of presentations I've done, or recordings, or whatever. And when I actually get around to updating it, you'll also see what I have coming up down the road.
Nikki Kinzer:
Oh, good.
Dr. Ari Tuckman:
So that's the place.
Pete Wright:
It's all the same bucket of time, right, all the same bucket of time.
Dr. Ari Tuckman:
Yeah, exactly. I can't both do things and post them. Pick one.
Pete Wright:
Right, right. The great paradox of the Anthropocene era. Yeah, here we are.
Dr. Ari Tuckman:
Exactly.
Pete Wright:
Well, thank you, again. Go check out Ari's work; never a waste of time. And to everybody listening, we appreciate you downloading and listening to this show. Thank you for your time and attention. Don't forget if you have something to contribute to the conversation, we're heading over to the show talk channel on our Discord server, and you can join us right there by becoming a supporter at the deluxe level or better. On behalf of Ari Tuckman and Nikki Kinzer, I'm Pete Wright. And we'll see you right back here next week on Taking Control: The ADHD Podcast. Got [inaudible 00:42:47]-
