Building Workflows
Hey there, ADHD-ers! In the latest installment of The ADHD Podcast, Pete and Nikki are tackling the world of workflows. You know, those magical sequences of steps that take you from start to finish on any given task or project. And let's be real, who couldn't use a little more structure in their life?
The dynamic duo is all about ditching the stuffy term "routine" in favor of the more flexible "workflow." Because let's face it, rigidity and ADHD don't exactly go hand in hand. Pete even shares his own tried-and-true workflow for podcasting, complete with a handy-dandy checklist that keeps him on track and error-free.
But workflows aren't just for work, my friends. Nikki's quick to point out that they can be a game-changer for tackling everyday tasks like managing your email inbox. The key is to identify those areas of your life where a little extra organization could go a long way.
Now, if the thought of creating a workflow has you breaking out in hives, fear not! Pete and Nikki have got you covered with tips on everything from flowcharts to mind maps. And the best part? Perfection is totally overrated. Just start simple and let iteration be your guide.
So, whether you're looking to up your productivity game at work or just trying to keep your head above water in your personal life, this episode of The ADHD Podcast is not to be missed. Tune in and learn how to create workflows that work for you and your unique ADHD brain. Trust me, your future self will thank you.
Links & Notes
-
Pete Wright:
Hello, everybody, and welcome to Taking Control: The ADHD Podcast on TruStory FM. I'm Pete Wright, and I am here with Nikki Kinzer.
Nikki Kinzer:
Hello, everyone. Hello, Pete Wright.
Pete Wright:
Hi. We had a big pre-show, by request. Pre-show by request. So for those of you who are not members, if you're listening to the public show, just know that you missed, I don't know, 14 full minutes of Pete extolling-
Nikki Kinzer:
Tech-ing out. Nerding out.
Pete Wright:
... The benefits of Zapier, the platform automation tool. So check it out. We had a good time talking about that stuff. And that is just one of the things that you get when you become a member, is you get to hang out with us and talk about ... And ask us questions. So it's been really fun. Hi. Welcome to our big workflow show.
Nikki Kinzer:
Yes.
Pete Wright:
You excited about it?
Nikki Kinzer:
I am. Well, it's funny. So when we were talking about what we were going to talk about today, right?
Pete Wright:
Yeah, yeah.
Nikki Kinzer:
And there were two ideas. One of them, which we will talk about because I know this was a huge interest for a lot of people, is when you have too many opened windows on your browser.
Pete Wright:
Browser tabs.
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah.
Pete Wright:
Browser tab overload.
Nikki Kinzer:
Browser tab. And so I thought we were going to talk about that and not workflows, but then I reread what you had written and it was like, oh, no, no, we're going to do workflows. But I had commented that I didn't know a lot about workflows, which is so stupid because I know a lot-
Pete Wright:
You know a lot about workflows.
Nikki Kinzer:
... About workflows. What I don't know a lot about is how to solve the issue with browser tab. So that will be an upcoming episode, I'm sure, but I am thinking that that show's going to be a lot more like, what is it, problem solving between the two of us? I don't know if we have a solution. So it will be-
Pete Wright:
Yeah. In terms of a preview, I mean, it sounds like we're going to do that show pretty soon.
Nikki Kinzer:
I think so, because now we're saying it out loud.
Pete Wright:
Because it's fresh on the mind. But I think more than anything else it's like what, in the most common browsers ... Like in, let's say, Chrome, what are the tools built into Chrome that help you manage large numbers of tabs? I mean, there are a couple of tools that ... I was just talking to my wife about this last night, who has 68 tabs open in one Safari window. And she was like, "I just know there's something that I can do about this." And there is, and she had no idea that it existed, that this tool existed that helps you deal with tabs and sets of tabs and having lots of tabs. And so I look forward to that conversation. I didn't have an immediate answer because I don't have a lot of tabs open. I have a couple that I use, and then I close them. And my solution is close the tabs. So that's just a behavior. It's just a different behavior.
Nikki Kinzer:
And I think that that's where I was coming from too, because I really don't have that issue, because I do close everything down. But I know from working with so many clients that it is a huge issue. And it becomes so clutter-y, right? Because then you can't find the tab that you need. And I also think a lot of tabs stay open because you think you're going to forget or it's going to slip away, but then it gets-
Pete Wright:
That becomes a workflow question.
Nikki Kinzer:
... Buried anyway. Right. So this is what we're going to do, is we're going to talk about workflows. And then next time-
Pete Wright:
And then next time maybe we talk browser tabs.
Nikki Kinzer:
Exactly.
Pete Wright:
And workflows.
Nikki Kinzer:
And how we put that into it.
Pete Wright:
So that means we can't talk any more about browser tabs today.
Nikki Kinzer:
No more.
Pete Wright:
The door is closed. Stay tuned. Today we're talking about building your workflows, codifying your workflows. We're trying to reduce stress, reduce error, and figure out if templating activities can actually help you get more done. Before we do that, head over to takecontrolADHD.com to get to know us a little bit better. Listen to the show right there on the website or subscribe to the mailing list on the home page, and we'll send you an email each time a new episode is released. But you really want to connect with us. You can do all this stuff, Facebook, Instagram, Pinterest. We're all there, especially Pinterest. We're hot on Pinterest. I don't know if you knew that.
Nikki Kinzer:
We love Pinterest.
Pete Wright:
So hot. But yeah. I don't know how that happened. I think it's fantastic. But really, our favorite place, we're cruising up, cruising up toward a thousand members in the ADHD Discord community. That's pretty cool.
Nikki Kinzer:
That is very cool.
Pete Wright:
Right? We should have some sort of a countdown. Oh, I wonder if Zapier can help us with a countdown.
Nikki Kinzer:
Maybe.
Pete Wright:
If you head over to takecontrolADHD.com/discord, you can join the free section of the community. Lots of channels in there you can play with. And if you want to get a little bit more, if the show itself has ever helped you, head over to patreon.com/theADHDpodcast. Patreon is listener-supported podcasting for us. Your few bucks a month over at Patreon helps us keep the show thriving and invest in new tools and do the things that we need to do, like teach you about Zapier, for the members. Those are the things that ... We've got a robust team on the back end who make this show happen. So Patreon is this show. Patreon.com/theADHDpodcast. You're doing your part to help guarantee that we continue to grow this show and add new features and invest more heavily in this wonderful, wonderful community. Thank you so much in advance if you're already a supporter, and if you're not, the water is warm. Patreon.com/theADHDpodcast to learn more.
All right, Nikki, what's a workflow?
Nikki Kinzer:
The water is warm. Funny. I just imagine, what is it, dipping your little toe in to see, is this water warm?
Pete Wright:
Yeah. Is the water warm enough?
Nikki Kinzer:
Can I go into it or not? Yeah.
Pete Wright:
And it makes that little chime sound.
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah.
Pete Wright:
Yeah, when your toes hit the water.
Nikki Kinzer:
All right. So workflow, workflow, yes. So this is interesting because we like the word workflow better than we like the word routine, don't we?
Pete Wright:
We do. We discovered that.
Nikki Kinzer:
Yes, in a conversation. And we figured this out when we were writing our book, that workflow just sounds a lot nicer.
Pete Wright:
I'm sorry. Are you talking about Unapologetically ADHD, available now for pre-order at Amazon and Barnes and Noble? Oh, okay. I just wanted to make sure.
Nikki Kinzer:
That's the one I'm talking about.
Pete Wright:
That was the one you were talking about. We should clarify.
Nikki Kinzer:
We should clarify that.
Pete Wright:
I apologize for that flagrant product placement.
Nikki Kinzer:
You know what? Good for you. Yeah. But yes, workflow is like a routine, but we like workflow better because words matter, and how we associate behaviors and thoughts and emotions around words matter. And a routine feels very structured. It feels very limited. It feels like if I don't do a step, it's failed, where a workflow feels more flowy. It feels like it has some flexibility. It feels like there are steps, but you could get through it with maybe missing one or two steps and you're still going to be okay. So I like that. And the definition, the formal definition, is the sequence of steps involved in moving from the beginning to the end of a working process.
So what is a workflow in ... An example of workflows? It can be anything. It can be something that you do at work, but it's also a lot of stuff that you do at home and you don't even realize that you're doing it. Most likely, you do the same thing over and over again every morning from the time you get up until you walk out the door. That's a workflow, of how you prepare yourself for the day. Making a meal is a workflow. You gather your ingredients, you're looking at the recipe, you're following the directions, and then you get this meal. That's a workflow.
So there's a lot of different ways you can look at this. And they're important. They're important, especially for ADHD-ers and just being a human because if you don't have a workflow or some kind of way of doing things, then it's all very scattered. And what I see with my clients is they become very reactive. And so there's not a lot of intention on how they're going to spend their day because they're reacting to things. And so they do become important because they help you get things done. They help you stay focused. They help you know what you've already done and what's still left, because the working memory isn't always working when you have ADHD.
Pete Wright:
Yeah. Yeah. So when you look at your day-to-day work life, what have you workflowed?
Nikki Kinzer:
Definitely my morning. It's pretty standard, except for now we have a new puppy.
Pete Wright:
So nothing is standard.
Nikki Kinzer:
Nothing is standard anymore, and we get up a lot earlier than we used to, but now we've incorporated him in our workflow. So you adjust as things come in that are new. But I would definitely say the morning routine. I would definitely say ... I do the same thing all the time when I come into my office. I usually will check my email, I'll check my calendar, and I look at my to-do list. I do my own little daily check-in to see what is ahead of me. What do I have to do? And it's almost always the same. And I check Discord along that too. So I have these tasks that I do first before I ever get into the work. That's a workflow.
Pete Wright:
Right. That's a workflow. Some of them are internalized. For me, I know in the morning when I wake up, the first thing I do, I pick up my phone and I check to ... Honestly, I do one thing. I play the Conlextions game, which is Connections, like New York Times Connections game, but by Lex Friedman. He's a pop culture nerd. I like his version of the game. And I play that game. That's the first thing I do in the morning.
And then I put the phone away and I go walk the dog. I come back, I have a meticulous tea ceremony that I do for making my morning tea, and then I settle in and check the morning email and messages to see how I've done. And that takes ... Oh, there's a shower in there, depending on the time. But generally, that takes me hour, hour and a half to get all that stuff done. And I've internalized that. I don't need to document that. I remember. The dog helps me remember. He's my accountability puppy. And I keep those things on track.
Once I get to work and I'm sitting at the desk, I recognize that there are a bazillion distractions that are in the way of me being able to remember all the specific tasks for the specific workflows, for the specific projects that I'm working on at any given time. So I work zealously in templates, and that has become an unlocking mechanism for me because it has removed friction from me having to think about what's next on a list because it's always the next thing is present on the list. And it's only because I was able to muscle through the process of analyzing the work of specific projects and documenting them the one time that I can repeatedly do them and perform them over and over every day. Without that process, if I had to sit and think about repeating tasks, I would lose track of them because their fireworks are too loud.
Nikki Kinzer:
So I'm curious, because we just did a GPS workshop last month around template, and so we talked about how we use templates and where we use them and how you can use them. So can you give us an example of a template that you use so that we can just actually visually see how this works with a workflow?
Pete Wright:
Well, visually see and imagine because we're audio only.
Nikki Kinzer:
Well, that's true. Yeah. Imagine.
Pete Wright:
But I mean, I can tell you. The one that is the most apparent to me is ... I have a different workflow or template built in TickTick for every single episode of every single podcast that I have to do. And so in that case, the title of the project is the name of the movie we're reviewing, say, for The Next Reel show. And I know in that, here's a task for watch the movie. I know I have to watch the movie before I do a podcast on it. I then have to research background. That's a task, to have to take an hour and research the background of the movie, the making of the movie, and I have to check that off.
Then I have to record the show. That's actually on there, and it's dated and timed for when the recording is going to take place. Then I have to write the show notes after we record it. I have to produce the episode. I have to add the title summary and artwork into the MP3. I have to upload it to our podcast host, and I have to build the post for our CMS, for the website. I then have to remember to delete the original audio, because otherwise it just stacks up, taking up space on my computer.
I have to write my Letterboxd review for the show. I have to post the show to Facebook and Pinterest and IMDB and Threads and Instagram and Letterboxd. I have to revise the webpage. I have to update our database in Coda. And then I have to finally archive that episode onto our cold storage when I'm finished producing it and it's out there live. I take the source audio production file and I put it on my NAS drive, which actually gets backed up to the cloud cold storage. So there are a bunch of tasks. Now I've got 1,300 episodes in that particular show. We've been doing that show a long time.
Nikki Kinzer:
A long time, yeah.
Pete Wright:
And you would think by now that I would just remember those steps.
Nikki Kinzer:
No.
Pete Wright:
I don't remember those steps. And I have to check them off one at a time every time in order to make sure I don't screw it up. It saves me time and it reduces error. And so I think that has been a huge issue for me. And with every new project that we take on, we create a new template that is just like this, and we go through every step and make sure that we're documenting the right steps for the right client, for the right podcast, for the right whatever it is, and make sure we get it right.
And where I learned this, and this is somebody I would love to get on the show ... I know it would be a stretch. This is a stretch goal, but I would fanboy so hard. There's an author. He's a physician. His name is Atul Gawande. And he wrote the book, The Checklist Manifesto, which was transformative for me. And that's what it is. And the message of that book for me, that I got out of it, was there is no process too small or mundane that, if it is important enough, it shouldn't have a checklist. It saves lives in the hospital. That was his perspective. But in fact, it saves time and error and money. And figuring out how to build your templates is really, really important. So that was my takeaway and that's what I wanted to talk about as we get into how to create a workflow, is that stuff. What do you think?
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah, that's great. Well, and I think that one of the benefits that you're saying is not only that you won't remember it so this gives you the tracking piece of it, of what I've done and what I haven't done, but it also just relieves the stress of when you're going to do it too, I would assume. Having some idea of ... This is attached to this project, so when this comes up, this is what I'm going to do.
It's not ... I don't know. It just feels like, for me, because I have a similar kind of template for the GPS newsletter and it's broken down like that. Choose this, do this, send this. And I know that I do the GPS newsletter every Thursday afternoon during our accountability anchor session. So I've attached it to a certain time so I don't have to worry about any ... I don't have to worry about the GPS newsletter until Thursday. And I have a list of what I need to do to get that out. And so I am just saying that if you add it to an actual time or time block too, then it's also releasing that stress of when you're going to get it done.
Pete Wright:
Yeah, absolutely. That's absolutely it. Now we're talking a lot about checklists, but checklists are one part of ... It's just one option for building a workflow. And I know you and I both are multimodal when it comes to building checklists. So I think the first thing to think about when you go into building your workflow is to embrace imperfection, right? Just know that you're going to start simple in order to figure out what the best tool is for the job and know that iteration is the goal, not solving the problem on the ... First thought, best thought. That's not what you're going for. You're going for figuring out what the overall family of activities are, and then choose the right platform to do that. It might be a template in TickTick or Todoist for a checklist.
But you know what? It might be a flowchart. It might be a visual representation. It might be a mind map. We're both big lovers of mind maps. A mind map is a fantastic workflow for things that you need to put big on a wall so that you can remember the general flow of actions. Maybe they're associated with a checklist template in TickTick. I don't know. But being able to start in those other formats, more visual formats, even if you don't consider yourself a, quote, "visual thinker," give it a chance, to actually sit down with a pen and paper and draw it out. Draw the flow of information. Draw the flow of activity, and see if you don't connect with it in a new way.
I think there are a lot of folks who say, "Well, I don't consider myself an artist in any way, shape, or form. I could never do anything like that." We had Mike Rohde on the show, now it's been a couple of years, who's the man behind Sketchnotes, which I am a huge fan of Sketchnotes and the Sketchnote Army. And he had that same message. He was like, "I don't care if you don't think you're an artist. I think you're an artist, and I think I can teach you how to do Sketchnotes if you give yourself a little bit of breathing room to learn some new tools." And I'll be damned, he did. He really did.
Nikki Kinzer:
Well, and I just want to say I love flowcharts. I love being able to start with something and ... Is it yes? You go here. If it's no, you go here. And I think that that's something, in addition to everything you've been talking about, that is something I definitely advocate for because it is a nice visual representation, and it again reminds you. It's just that flowy piece of it. It's that flowy ... It's not just a list that you have to go through, but it's this flow of, okay, this is the behavior I need to do to get to this.
And it's so interesting because I would also add, when you're looking at workflows, where in your life do you need one? Also start there. Where is there friction in your life? Email is a huge thing for so many people. And we did a whole thing on email for our Patreon community a couple months ago. And that is so beneficial to be able to look at how do you process email? What is your workflow? And so there's areas like that too, that can really benefit from this type of thinking.
Pete Wright:
I think email is a great example in this context too, because when we talk about creating a workflow and getting the workflow to its simplest kind of core, how is it that you could approach email with that in mind? And I look at email in some pretty discrete buckets, and so I don't have a rigorous filing system because my email comes in, either it's informational, it's task-related, or it's schedule-related. And once I think about those three buckets, I only have three choices of things to do. I either put it on my task list, I put it on the calendar, or I know that there's going to be work associated with it. I have to actually respond or file.
And that reduces the number of choices I have to make. Reducing choices is the goal. That reduces friction. Don't put yourself in the way. If you treat each and every email as an atom with infinite possibility, you will get bogged down. If you treat each email as part of a bucket of things where there are limited choices with which to do, then you reduce that friction. And I think that's so important. Everything related to ADHD and productivity is rooted in the degree to which you approach it with friction and the degree to which you can remove that friction.
Nikki Kinzer:
Remove it. Right.
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah.
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Nikki Kinzer:
Absolutely. All right. So where do we go next? Let's see. So lots of different formats that you can choose from.
Pete Wright:
I wanted to look at ... I mean, we talked about building flowcharts using lots of color and symbols as appropriate. You know what? You're going to be surprised. This is where having a fundamental bullet journaling skill comes in, because there is a certain amount of artistry that comes in managing your own bullet journal. And it doesn't work for me, but what I have seen for people who really love their bullet journals is that they bring a level of symbology to the way they manage their information that I think is super useful when thinking about flowcharts. They've already gotten past the layer of ... I can't draw or I don't have the right tools, and they're able to create a flowchart that just beats the band. It's amazing. They can create a flow diagram that documents the things that they do in their life, which is super useful. So think about that. What can you do to bring light and color to the things that you're doing because that's going to trigger your brain. That's going to make you look at things differently.
I really enjoy making games out of things. I have a container of chocolate chips, mixed white and dark chocolate chips in the kitchen. And I put a little tiny Tupperware, I fill it with chocolate chips. And that's my game. I gamify my workflows. And when I'm finished with a task, I take a chocolate chip and I let it linger deliciously on my tongue. Yeah, that's right.
Nikki Kinzer:
That's nice.
Pete Wright:
It lingers. That's what it does.
Nikki Kinzer:
So I like to do the Pomodoro method when I'm doing chores and stuff around the house. And that's kind of gamifying it, because I want to know how fast can I do something in 25 minutes? How much can I get done in 25 minutes? And so that's the way that I gamify it, is that I'll think, "I'm going to do two pomodoros of whatever. Cleaning as much as I can, picking up as much as I can, or getting as much of the bathroom as I can," and that makes me clean faster.
Pete Wright:
Yeah, it does. You don't want to hang out in there.
Nikki Kinzer:
No, no. And so then you get two bathrooms done in 25 minutes, which is great.
Pete Wright:
That's right. That's perfect. So I want to talk about this next one because I don't ... Well, I guess I have some guidance and experience, but I'm curious how it works for you. We talk a lot about accountability partners, right? Accountability buddies. We talk about figuring out how to find support. What is the workflow equivalent of that?
Example. I have weekly lunches with Dr. Dodge, my dear friend. Been on the show a number of times. I believe he's actually in the chat today. We meet every single week on Thursday, and we just shoot the breeze, but we also talk a lot about this kind of stuff. And it invariably delves into what I would classify as workflow management. How do we do the things that we do every day when our schedules are very different from one another? And what are the tools that we rely on to actually get those things done?
I see enormous value in that relationship, apart from which he's a good friend. I was going to say he's a good friend and an old guy. He's an old friend and a good guy, but both might be true. But the point is having someone who is at the level that you are to be able to reflect on your workflows with you to make sure you're not missing a beat. I say that out loud. Any other community, and I would not say that out loud. But this is a safe space.
Nikki Kinzer:
Right. Right.
Pete Wright:
Where it's okay to find somebody who can talk through your workflows with you to help make sure you're not missing anything.
Nikki Kinzer:
Absolutely. Absolutely. A couple of things around that. One is that a lot of times, ADHD-ers are verbal processors. And so once they start talking to somebody else about what they need to do and what the steps are, it becomes a lot easier to break it down when you're verbalizing it with someone else versus trying to break it down in your head by yourself. That's one of the reasons why it's so hard to break projects down, is you're trying to do it by yourself. And so if you have someone you can talk to and say, "Okay, this is what I need to get done," and start talking through what that means, you're starting to listen to yourself. You can start to organize your thoughts better because they're not just in your head, and you've got somebody that you can start bouncing that back and forth with.
The other piece to that accountability is that we are not good being accountable to ourselves. I mean, ideally that would be great if we were, but we're not. And that's not just an ADHD thing. That's a human thing. If I don't have a trainer waiting for me at the gym, I'm probably not going to go. If I don't have a friend waiting for me at the class, I'm probably not going to go. So that kind of accountability really, I think, does wonders.
And so yeah, I think it is important that we look for that support and not be ashamed or embarrassed because it feels like this should be easy. It feels like we should be able to do it by ourselves. But when you start breaking down what planning is and time management and scheduling and all of that stuff, and you start looking at executive functions and you start looking at time blindness, and you start looking at all the factors that go into how ADHD impacts that, you're not going to wonder anymore why this is so hard.
And so it's acknowledging that, yes, I have ADHD, this is hard, and I need that support because it helps me get through it. And you're working with other people who get you. And like you said, it's a safe place. And so find that ADHD community. And I know GPS has already kind of passed its enrollment, but if you're listening to this and we're open, I would highly recommend looking at that program, because we have that built in every Monday and Thursday where you have sessions that you can attend, that you are planning. You are doing the work, and you're doing it with other people who struggle the same way and need that extra support. And there's no shame to that. It's just a place to hang out and get your planning done, and then you can get to work.
Pete Wright:
Yes. Yeah. I think being intentional about that is really great. And I would suggest don't shy away. If you're in the community, don't shy away from an intentional workflow swap. It makes me think we should create a channel. Let's figure out ... Let's talk about what do you do? How do you handle your study routine? How do you handle your morning routine or your household chores? What's the checklist look like? What's the workflow look like? How do you handle laundry? Because I know those are the things that stick, that cause trouble. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with writing out, "Here's my list. Here's how I do my laundry," and maybe somebody else will look at it and think, "Oh, I think I know why it's taking you five days to do your laundry and get it done, and maybe there are some things you could do to improve that."
Nikki Kinzer:
Right. Yeah, absolutely.
Pete Wright:
What do you think? Was this all right? Is this fun?
Nikki Kinzer:
It was so much fun.
Pete Wright:
I had a ball.
Nikki Kinzer:
I love it.
Pete Wright:
I had a ball.
Nikki Kinzer:
I'm going to look at all my workflows, especially around household chores.
Pete Wright:
Yeah, right. It does make you want to introspect a little bit, I'll tell you.
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah. Yeah. Those are the ones that I need to be looking at a little bit more deeper.
Pete Wright:
Yeah. No, that's for sure. Thank you, everybody, for hanging out and listening to the show this week. We sure appreciate your time and attention. Yeah. Jump open ... Jump open. Jump over to the community. And if you have something to add, you can head over to the show talk channel in the Discord server. And you can get into that one by becoming a supporting member at the deluxe level or better. But you don't have to do that. You can just head over to takecontroladhd.com/discord and get yourself in the free community and start talking about workflows too. We'd love to hear your ideas and thoughts. Even better, the chat room's been going quite well today. If you'd like to be on that livestream too, and chatting along live, that's where we're going now for the after-show. So thank you, everyone. On behalf of Nikki Kinzer, I'm Pete Wright. We'll see you right back here next week on Taking Control: The ADHD Podcast.
