Love, Attention, and the Invisible Chasm of ADHD with Jonathan Hassall
Imagine two people standing on opposite sides of a canyon. One, tethered to the rhythms of neurotypical expectation—cause and effect, action and consequence—a world in which forgotten keys are just that: forgotten keys. The other, moving through a landscape of impulsivity, of fractured attention, of a thousand micro-failures that feel, at times, like an existential indictment. They love each other. They try to reach across the chasm. But the bridge they need is invisible.
This week on The ADHD Podcast, Pete Wright and Nikki Kinzer embark on a three-part exploration into ADHD and relationships. Their guide this first week: Jonathan Hassall, an ADHD and executive function coach with a background in psychiatric nursing and ADHD research. Jonathan has spent years decoding the paradoxes that arise when ADHD meets the relentless machinery of relationships.
Why do partners of those with ADHD feel unheard? Why does an innocuous comment about condiments over lunch spiral into a silent war? Why do people with ADHD sometimes feel like perpetual disappointments in the eyes of those they love? And is there a way—a real, tangible way—to undo the corrosive misunderstandings that accumulate over years, even decades?
Jonathan argues that the real problem isn’t ADHD itself. It’s adaptation—or rather, the failure to adapt. The rules of engagement in relationships often assume a kind of neurological symmetry that simply doesn’t exist when one or both partners have ADHD. And when partners misinterpret behavior—when forgetfulness looks like indifference, when emotional reactivity looks like hostility—the result is a slow erosion of trust.
But what if there were another way? A way to recalibrate, to assume goodwill, to dismantle the myths and rebuild a foundation not on correction, but on understanding? From the science of emotional regulation to the power of a single moment of grace, Pete, Nikki, and Jonathan dissect the anatomy of ADHD relationships and ask the most fundamental question of all: What does it take to be truly seen?
Links & Resources:
Jonathan’s book: Decoding Doing
Learn more about Jonathan Hassall’s work at ConnectADHD Coaching
Join the ADHD community on Discord: TakeControlADHD.com/discord
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Pete Wright:
Hello everybody, and welcome to Taking Control: The ADHD Podcast on TruStory FM. I'm Pete Wright, and right there, look, it's Nikki Kinzer.
Nikki Kinzer:
Hello everyone. Hello, Pete Wright.
Pete Wright:
Oh, Nikki, here we go. We're starting a new miniseries here. We've got a three-parter and I'm pretty excited about it because I think we get comments and questions all the time in this area, right?
Nikki Kinzer:
We do, definitely, all the time.
Pete Wright:
So what are we doing? Just give us the preview. Give us two sentences that describe why we're here, what we're doing today.
Nikki Kinzer:
ADHD and relationships.
Pete Wright:
Well, that was just a couple of words in fact. We are, we're starting a three-part series on ADHD and relationships, and it doesn't just mean intimate partner relationships, we're talking about all kinds of relationships as we go through our little series. And we've got a fantastic guest.
Before we introduce him, however, head over to takecontroladhd.com to get to know us a little bit better. You can listen to the show right there on the website or subscribe to the mailing list, and we'll send you an email each time a new episode is released. You can connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, Pinterest, Bluesky, Take Control ADHD. But to really connect with us, join us on the ADHD Discord community. You can find that at takecontroladhd.com/discord. You will be whisked over to the general invitation and login.
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Today we are joined by Jonathan Hassall, an ADHD and Executive Function Coach and director of Connect ADHD Coaching. He's got a background in psychiatric nursing and ADHD research, and he now works internationally helping individuals and couples navigate ADHD. He's a speaker and author and so, so much more. He specializes in emotional regulation and executive function, empowering people to embrace their ADHD and build stronger relationships. Jonathan, welcome to The ADHD Podcast.
Jonathan Hassall:
Thank you Pete, and thanks Nikki for having me.
Nikki Kinzer:
Ah, we're thrilled.
Pete Wright:
We're really thrilled. And I guess we should, in the spirit of kicking off this series, we should start with setting the table for ADHD and relationships. When you are faced with talking with folks about how ADHD impacts relationships, how do you distill? What's the big picture?
Jonathan Hassall:
It's interesting, Pete, because the reason I moved into working in couples work, I mean, I also still see individuals, but the couples work came out of that very often, a very concerned partner is presenting with their partner with ADHD and saying, "Fix them." They're talking. And certainly if you've got ADHD, you've got to get on top of it. There's no two ways about it. But you two have done a wonderful job for what, 15 years telling us how to do it. Is that...
Nikki Kinzer:
It's a lot. It's a lot of years.
Pete Wright:
Yeah. Oh, no. What have we been doing all these years?
Jonathan Hassall:
And very quickly it becomes apparent that the problem, yes, there's ADHD, but the real problem in the relationship is the fact that we're not adapting to each other. So if you think of a neurotypical couple, and remember years ago there was Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus type idea, and they talked about the communication challenges as standard relationship, heterosexual relationship. And we were all a bit amazed back then because I'm so old I remember it.
Nikki Kinzer:
Oh, I do too. I'm right there with you.
Jonathan Hassall:
But then ADHD, why wouldn't we have the same issues? In fact, they're magnified. And so where it gets corrosive in a relationship is both partners start making assumptions about the intent of the other because they see behavior that makes them think, "Wait a minute. There's an intention behind that."
For example, if the person with ADHD continues to have problems delivering whatever has been corrected multiple times before, but it's inconsistent. And the partner with that ADHD can suddenly recognize, wait a minute, when you really want to do it, when something you're excited by or something that I get upset enough that you feel threatened by, then you can do it which tells me, in the neurotypical world, you're choosing not to do it for me.
And vice versa, when the person with ADHD hears from their non-ADHD partner corrections or they get more directive or more parental, they start to interpret that as you're trying to dominate me. You think I'm an idiot.
Nikki Kinzer:
You're criticizing me, yeah.
Jonathan Hassall:
And this is the corrosive beliefs that pop up and they're in error. They're myths, they're not right. So if we start from the idea of we've got a problem with how we're adapting to each other, which always in any relationship starts with, I don't really understand where you're coming from. So we can get back to that. If we make the focus about understanding rather than about correction or you've got to align with me, then suddenly you see this dawning of awareness on people's faces and they go, "Oh my God, I've been saying the absolutely worst thing for you for years."
Pete Wright:
Is it made easier if both partners in a relationship live with ADHD in some capacity? Because I mean, some of what you're talking about is illuminating the invisible, the things that, as you say, are corrosive. And if you have a shared language that is ADHD, does that make it easier?
Jonathan Hassall:
Yeah. And I think it does to a degree, but it's very dependent on how much each partner understands their ADHD. Because remember, there's a lot of us out there who haven't got our heads completely around what ADHD means for us.
And the other thing too is that even with both people living with ADHD, you'll find that one partner usually is the one that's functioning at that point and the other one is not. So one tends to take the neurotypical role in a sense, and still falter with, "Well, why aren't you doing it?" Because maybe they've conquered that part of their ADHD. Maybe their time in ADHD is not an issue, but their other partners still struggles with it. It's better, but it's still challenging.
Pete Wright:
Then you have the, "Well, I did it. Why can't you," kind of shame spiral, right?
Jonathan Hassall:
Yeah. "And I read this, you need to read this."
Pete Wright:
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Nikki Kinzer:
"This is helping me. This will help you."
Pete Wright:
"Have you ever heard of this specialist or this protocol?" Yeah. I think that can be a really subversive, like we talk about the invisible corrosive factors that can be a really subversive kind of passive-aggressive way to communicate about ADHD.
And from the perspective of setting up a complex organism of a relationship on the best foot, and in your words, creating a new foundation of relationships where ADHD is a factor but doesn't have to be a debilitating one, how do you conceptualize what that new foundation is?
Jonathan Hassall:
Right. Well, first off, it starts with any relationship, talking. But more than that, it starts with hearing. So we get very good at talking at each other, and particularly when we get upset and we feel frustrated and we don't feel heard. And so we talk more.
Nikki Kinzer:
And louder.
Jonathan Hassall:
Yeah, louder and just more emotively. And if you're me with probably more expressive language, that's not acceptable. But that's not the issue, the issue is the first part. I'm not feeling heard, that's why I'm yelling. If I say, "Well, hang on, am I hearing them," and if we start with this...
And my analogy I like is here in Australia you would have something similar in the US, but we have a thing called the SES, which are volunteer rescue people. And we have a lot of empty country here. Imagine the US but that people are only living right on the edges of the coast.
Pete Wright:
Right.
Jonathan Hassall:
So when people get lost in the bush here, we send out the SES. Now when the SES go out to rescue someone, if they can hear them, if they're shouting out and they can hear them, they'll tell the person they're going to rescue, "Just stand still, keep talking to me and I'll come to you." The reason they do that is because the person who's lost is clearly lost and doesn't know what they're doing. So if they try and move, they're more likely to step on a snake, fall of a cliff, whatever, or get more lost effectively.
Whereas the SES person knows what they're doing, so they're listening for them, they're going to be guided into them. And once they're standing beside them, they can see the world from the other person's perspective, which means they're much better equipped to walk out with them.
And that's the analogy. Let's join them where they are. Let's accept completely and unreservedly what they believe to be true for them and say, "Well, okay, this has to be our starting point." So the first thing is we've got to communicate and we start with that communication around, "What the hell just happened then for you?"
And I've got a little story, I'll have to tell you. My wife, who is a wonderful coach as well, Monica Hassall, she... I have ADHD, Monica does not. We call her ADHD adjacent because she has many of the symptoms, but she never quite meets the criteria no matter how many times we check.
Pete Wright:
She keeps dodging that particular bullet.
Jonathan Hassall:
Anytime of the day or night, you say, "Monica, what time it is?" She's right within about three minutes. And to me, that's like a new level of magic or science that I don't understand. But anyway, so we had this thing one day and we were having hotdogs for lunch with the kids and not particularly healthy meal anyway. It was like a Saturday lunch, throwaway lunch. And I was in the fridge rummaging around looking for something to put on my hotdog, like some sort of sauce or something because I hate a dry hotdog.
Anyway, I was trying to be good because I was trying to be healthy and lose some weight. So I was avoiding the barbecue sauce I usually adore, which really limited my choices. So I was rummaging around there and Monica being helpful, called out and said, "What are you looking for? Can I help you?" And I said, "Oh, just something to put on my hotdog." And she said, "Oh, what about sweet chili sauce," because she likes sweet chili sauce. And I said, "Oh, no, no, no. Too much sugar in that. I don't want that." And then she said, "Oh yeah, you're right. Well, but it hasn't as much sugar as barbecue sauce."
Now, straight away I got triggered because here I am being good and now I'm being criticized for my former behavior. And of course now, because I had evolved somewhat by then, I didn't get upset. Well, I got upset, but I didn't verbalize it. I just went quiet. I went quiet and quietly went and ate my dry hotdog.
Pete Wright:
It's the saddest story ever so far.
Jonathan Hassall:
I yelled to her across, eating my hotdog. And Monica looked at me after a while and said, because normally I talk incessantly. Monica looked at me after a while and said, "Hey, are we okay?" And I said, "Not really."
Nikki Kinzer:
"No, I'm mad at you."
Jonathan Hassall:
"Pretty ticked off right now." And I think, Nikki, it was an interesting thing. I was a little bit mad at her and was a little bit mad at me, and I was a little bit of shame at me, and she said, "Tell me what happened." And that was the best thing she could have done. So I explained and said, "I felt like I was doing a good thing." And she went, "Oh my God, I'm so sorry." So she did this wonderful thing, she acknowledged my pain.
Even though she didn't mean to do it in any logical setting, it wouldn't have been attributed to her. She still acknowledged that I was feeling pain. And she said, "I don't want you to feel that way ever." And then she said her intent, "What I intended was you were just saying sauces and I was trying to help you, and I was racking my brain and I was just doing word association. So when you said that one's got too much sugar, I was going, yeah, yeah, and barbecue has got too much sugar and it was nothing to do with you. It was to do with me trying to think what sauce you could have." So this is all an attempt to help me.
Now she recognized the impact, she declared her intention, which is pretty critical if you do have ADHD. And then we talked about what happened for me, so what was the effect on me. Then we talked about what we could do in the future, which was she said, "Oh, hey, look, anytime I tick you off like that, you tell me and we'll solve it rather than making it worse by having this corrosive element." So I'm very lucky I'm married to Monica, and I know that. And everyone reminds me regularly.
Nikki Kinzer:
I've met her. I agree. She's lovely, yeah. I have a question though, because the way that that played out is beautiful and ideal. And you're also, I mean, you can tell that there's a lot of love there and compassion. What about if that was a different couple, same situation but it came across more of like, "Why are you mad at me? Why are you being quiet? What is wrong with you?" Or coming attacking almost, right? Because I see that in my own clients where they feel attacked a lot.
Jonathan Hassall:
Well, so it takes two to have an argument. It only takes one to change an argument into a conversation, and we don't control each other. So I mean, I think one of the big mistakes a lot of couples think is we've both got to be playing the game to make this work. Because even though the example I gave was a rather benign and sweet one, I wasn't playing the game when Monica came and said, are you okay?
Nikki Kinzer:
You were upset.
Jonathan Hassall:
I was definitely not playing the game. I was in sulky boy land.
Nikki Kinzer:
Eating a dry hotdog.
Pete Wright:
Totally get that because the implication of that, the whole exchange, and I've been quiet because I am experiencing it right now, not with hotdogs, but boy do we have some culinary baggage that I'm sure we share. It's the idea that that comment triggered in me an experience that, oh, clearly she's been judging my diet all along and not talking to me about it. And that's one of those things. I go straight into the experience of RSD, like I feel rejected and judged and bruised for something, and we haven't even talked about it at this point. She has no awareness.
And like you said, she was just trying to be helpful. She was just trying to find an alternative and was not able to. But so much of what you're talking about sounds very much like, "Hey, we need to start at some rudimentary communication issues before we even get to the fact that ADHD is having an impact on the way we speak to one another."
Jonathan Hassall:
Absolutely. And within that too, we've got to start thinking about where these emotional associations come from. So when we fabricate up these giant scenarios of you're against me, whether it's judging my diet for over all these years or whatever, what's really happening is from neurological levels. So we're in default mode network most of the time with ADHD. That's both our gift and our curse. It allows us to be creative, spontaneous, interesting. It allows us to have lots of interests.
But at the same time too, it means that when we get triggered, we go into this cycle of association, which means what we're doing is like you were saying, Pete, you were thinking every time she's looked sideways at me whenever I've eaten something. Or every time when I've said, "Oh, I'm feeling really full," and then said, "Well, did you really need to eat that pizza?" So you're building-
Pete Wright:
Yes, dear God, I needed to eat that pizza is the only answer.
Jonathan Hassall:
Absolutely. There was no choice.
Pete Wright:
Yes.
Jonathan Hassall:
The pizza threw itself at me really, if you think about it. But yeah, so that's what we do. We fabricate up this big story that is all smoke and shadows. But to be able to realize that, we need to be able to come to attention.
So to double back on what Nikki was talking about a minute ago was the idea is that either one can change that course, either one. And all they have to do is stop talking about themselves. All they've got to do is say, "So, okay, I've got this big scenario. You're out to get me and you're on a war with my stomach or whatever else." Then all I have to do is say, "Wait a minute, what did you mean by that? Where'd that come from?"
Nikki Kinzer:
Oh, so questioning that response, like where I see, okay, so where did that come from?
Jonathan Hassall:
Bring naivety back into the relationship. Let's not assume just because we've known each other for 30 years, that I can predict what you're thinking because that would be really boring. Yet we do that all the time. Instead, if you come back in with the naivety of, "Hey, okay, what was that about? What do you mean by that?" And then genuinely being about, I just want to understand. Now if you've then confirmed that you've been secretly sabotaging my diet for 20 years, then we'll have another issue.
Pete Wright:
Sabotaging. So you said, and you said it so easily, you said, all we have to do is remember to stop talking about ourselves. And then I said to myself, but wait, I do have ADHD and I love talking about myself. And that's where my head is most of the time.
Jonathan Hassall:
But if you have ADHD, Pete, there's one thing you love more, and that's hearing about other people. With ADHD, you think about how influenced we are by people around us. We use their structures, our self-esteem is shaped by what we think they're thinking about us. We are remarkable to external people. So I'm actually encouraging you to embrace one of the most native features of ADHD which is to be externally focused, adopt that external loci of control and say, "Okay, for the moment, I'm just like an observer here."
And just to add to that, what I encourage people, even if the complaint is about you, there's this really cool thing that happens. And I don't know whether it's from my psych background or whatever, but if someone starts telling the problem and I'm really affiliating with them, I'm really hearing them, I'm really acknowledging, I'm not challenging anything, it can be about me and it feels like it's about this other person. I do totally join them in that moment.
And they love it. They're sort of [inaudible 00:20:20] why I'm not defending myself but actually it doesn't feel like it's about me. It feels like, "Yeah, what a dick. What an awful person. Oh, he shouldn't have done. Oh, that's terrible. Oh, I would hate that." But then afterwards, then once we're in alignment, then they're open to hearing my side of the story.
Pete Wright:
Yeah, that's a good point. And the raw nerve aspect of living with ADHD is that also we tend to be pretty empathetic and do feel others' experience and pain and frustration with some affinity.
Nikki Kinzer:
For sure.
Jonathan Hassall:
So to get to there, we've got to have a coming together and we have to be able to sit down and allow each other to say what they believe is going on for them. And in good classic psych talk, you only ever talk about your own feelings, and you only own your own feelings. You don't project anything on anyone else. So you keep it in your camp, you talk about yourself to the other one.
And I use, I call it connect time, but it's actually, you've probably heard of the talking stick or I've got the conch shell type thing. And it's just the full version of that, which is as a speaker, you have a responsibility to modify your language until you feel understood by the listener, which means if you've said the same thing 10 times, then you're missing the point. You need to make sure that you're aware of your listener, you're aware how they're processing the information, the way they process information, and you're adapting to them.
As a listener, you have a responsibility to keep actively listening without agenda until the speaker feels understood, all the good listening techniques so you can summarize. You can ask probing questions. You'll make clarifying statements. But at the end of the day, none of your stuff comes in. So no solving, no, "But you didn't understand this bit? No? Oh no, you're wrong about that. I know the fact is true over here," none of that.
Now if you could do that, and this is what I say to couples, do that every day for 5, 10 minutes. Make it about the weather. How do you feel about the weather today, honey? What's your day look like? Are you excited about it or not? And be genuinely engaged in their answer and ask them, did you feel heard? Now you can do that every day for five or 10 minutes. I see it with couples that do it every day. In the first week, I see a dramatic shift because they're actively listening to each other's experience.
And the awarenesses they bring are amazing. They go, "Oh my God, I had no idea she thought like that," or I had no idea like that, right? So there's the big barrier move. Then we set some rules for engagement, and I always put it back to happy couples are happy individuals. So if you need to be happy as an individual, you have to be achieving your intent, which means you have to be who you want to be.
So the first thing we're going to do is decide who we want to be. And there's the first red flag that tells us that we're not adapting well because neither partner will be who they want to be. They'll be attributing it to the other partner, but neither partner will be who they want to be. So that's the first thing. We've got to support each other in getting back to who we want to be.
The second is then who do we want to be as a couple? And that's a really good point is that very often the neurotypical partners will settle. They'll say, "Oh, look, even if they could just take out the garbage once a week, or if they just do this," and it's on equal partnership, they're still being parental. And they said, "Don't settle because you'll be back here in three months upset with whatever you've left with, and the person who you're settling for will still feel diminished and lessened."
So aim for the spine. Say, "This is what we think an ideal relationship is, and this is our goal." And then that sets the rules.
Pete Wright:
I find that sort of chasm, that liminal space between ADHD and non-ADHD partners really interesting because, and we hear this from time to time, "My spouse doesn't have ADHD, they just don't understand me. How can I teach them about my lived experience so they understand me better and can," whatever the end of that sentence is and adapt to how I live in our home, whatever the case may be. How can I, as if I need to take on the responsibility of teaching ADHD.
But everything you're saying right now really leans in toward, let's instead focus on the human relationship first and the ADHD stuff should come along, the adaptation should come along. You shouldn't maybe have to take on the responsibility of the ADHD schoolmarm to teach your partner the ins and outs of ADHD. Is that a fair assessment?
Jonathan Hassall:
Yeah, absolutely. ADHD is a diagnostic criteria. It describes impairment. And let's not kid ourselves about that. That's the reality of it. What we've adopted as people with ADHD is that, oh, it's a brain type when really our brain type is much more than that. It's different. So don't get me wrong, it's different. But it's much more than a collection of impairments. I refuse to be a collection of impairments.
And in fact, we know if you look at Margaret Sibley study that she did last year. I think it was last year she put it out, looking at the MTA that what we thought was sustained remission coming out of MTA, it wasn't. So that where we thought they thought 80% remission that adults, the kids don't become adults with ADHD. And of course we know that's nonsense, but it was only when they recut the data that she showed that, well, no, no, no, they go in and out of remission versus struggling with ADHD.
So there's the first part. The second part is, like I said before, we all have varying degrees of expertise with our ADHD. So to think we're going to lecture anyone about our ADHD is probably a bit misguided at the best of times anyway. And like you said, it's no one's responsibility to teach someone about us, and it puts the focus in the wrong place. It makes it that the ADHD is the problem in our relationship that is breaking us, and I don't accept that. I think it's about how we adapt.
Because if we start to describe what we're experiencing incrementally as we go through life and feel the security and safety that we can say, "Wow, that's not what I thought or heard or said or saw compared to you," then what happens is not only do we educate each other about the real deal, which is what we're experiencing. Whether it's ADHD or not, I might be experiencing some, not because of my ADHD, but just because that's my upbringing and my belief system. So let's not make me a label. Let's instead talk about who I am as a human being.
And the difference is the incessant chatter in our head with ADHD. Monica just looks at me like she's baffled by me sometimes. And she'd say, "Oh my God, you never stop thinking, do you?" She said that about years into our marriage. She said, "You never stop thinking, do you?" And I went, "No, don't you? How do you stop thinking?" And she said, "You just don't." I actually had... My first and only effect with COVID was interesting because it gave me type 1 diabetes as a gift as it left the building.
Pete Wright:
Oh, congratulations. That's lovely for you.
Jonathan Hassall:
So I had stent in ICU, it almost killed me. I was stented in ICU, and I was sitting out in the hospital bed. It was actually a hospital I used to be a nurse at, so it was sort of cool. They gave me a really good room looking over the river. I was thinking, and I would sit on the edge of that bed for hours staring. And Monica came in and said, "Hey, what are you thinking about?" Thinking I'm inventing spaceships or something. And I went, "Nothing." It was like... I was like, flatlining. And she said, "Wow." Then she was really worried.
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah, what's wrong?
Pete Wright:
Right, yeah.
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah.
Jonathan Hassall:
And the practice of saying, "Hey, let's reset. We just don't get each other." We get each other in lot of ways, but we don't get each other in terms of what's happening because misinterpreting our behaviors. So let's go open, tell early and often. "Okay, well you didn't seem to hear that the same way I did. What did you hear?" Remember, start with what's going on for you. "Tell me," and then talk about it.
And I think that incremental way, not only is the best way of showing someone who you are in the natural way but also too, it just pumps the connectedness. That intimacy is, that's what intimacy is really. It's purity to tell people what we're really thinking.
Nikki Kinzer:
I'm curious if you see a difference between a couple who goes into the relationship with an already diagnosis of ADHD versus I've been married for a while and now I'm getting this diagnosis after my child was diagnosed, or it's a late diagnosis. Do you see a difference in dynamics in relationships with diagnosis as being?
Jonathan Hassall:
Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, often if it's a new diagnosis, it'll be either the partner is still trying to process that, sorry, the person with ADHD is trying to still process that diagnosis so they're not even ready to look at the relationship. So maybe work on that first. And the partner can be involved in that but the focus has got to be, I'm always coaching, it's always critical that you make clear who is the client, and it doesn't matter who's in the room. I'll tell everyone in the room who my client is, so they're my person.
So everyone else is just a spectator at that point. But if I coach a couple, they're both my clients, so they're both my people. So there's that aspect. The other aspect too of the new diagnosis is the person being dragged into the session. The neurotypical partner says, "No, no, no, you're coming to this session," and they're not even fully accepting of their diagnosis yet.
The people who were diagnosed before, they usually fall into two camps. One that they sort of have a reasonable understanding of their ADHD, but it's pure relationship stuff. The other one is that like a lot of people, they grew up, they got diagnosed as a kid, their parents took care of everything. They're now an adult. Its sort has been almost handed over to their partner, and they still don't know enough about their ADHD and they sort of, it needs a whole reset.
Pete Wright:
So much of that dynamic is, and I'm stepping back just a minute because I'm perseverating on it. Is this idea that we use, I'll speak for myself, that when I'm at my worst, I use my partner's lack of understanding of ADHD, which is not, I mean, my partner understands ADHD very, very well. She's quite adept. But I use that as a way to excuse some infraction, some perceived infraction.
And let me teach you about my ADHD because clearly you don't understand why I'm late or why I forgot to get avocados on the way home, or why I didn't read all the text messages that I got in the text chain. And none of that actually addresses any of the real issue of how we feel when we are talking to one another. It's just a vehicle to excuse past infraction. And that's the eye-opening piece for me right now. That's the new language for me.
Jonathan Hassall:
Yeah. Well, I mean, my partner, Monica, I'm talking about Monica a lot today, but Monica wrote a fantastic article a few years ago with Barbara Hunter called the Fourth F. and it was about fibbing, lying, and how we tend to lie reactively and defensively with ADHD, and it's often misconstrued as a manipulative gaslighting type behavior.
Someone said some of the ADHD gaslights, I said, "Are you kidding? How could they remember the story or the agenda like 10 minutes later? I wouldn't." I would burn. I'd be like, "Hang on, did I use an Indian accent then or not?"
So Monica wrote this article about that. It's been reprinted several times in attention, I think, because this is a great article. And what you are talking about, Pete, is the adult evolution of that. Here you are an articulate, cultured, educated man. So now you've got very good at rationalizing, but in a different way. You don't have to rationalize with a fabrication, you can rationalize with, "I'm going to use my ADHD powers and I'm going to," which is my knowledge.
And again, it comes back, you're right, it doesn't solve anything. It just makes your partner feel like you're not owning it. And that's a really critical partner. It comes back to the idea of if your partner is listening, what's your partner's name?
Pete Wright:
Kira.
Jonathan Hassall:
Kira. Hey, Kira. Next time Pete does that, just say, "That's great, honey, but how's that going to help you?"
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah. That turns it around, doesn't it?
Pete Wright:
Yeah, I know, I know. That's not great. Well, I also don't have any avocados at the store, and I'm still late.
Jonathan Hassall:
And this comes back to one of the things because partners often come and say, "Well, where's the line in the sand? Where should we stop tolerating things not happening?" And the whole mindset of that is around punishment and correction, which we know doesn't work in any setting. The line in the sand is an individual one. And so for me, my line in the sand is I had zero tolerance for not achieving what I intended.
Now, that doesn't mean I shame myself, guilt myself, blame myself or anything else like that because I gave up that a while ago because pretty useless. What I do is my attitude is, no, no, I'm going to be happy if I'm achieving what I intended, even if it's misguided, as long as I'm achieving what I intended and I'm being who I want to be as I do it. So anytime that doesn't happen, if I said I was going to be home with avocados at three o'clock and I'm not, then I'm annoyed with myself that, hang on, let's figure it out. Let's solve it.
And I think that's what I was literally redirecting back there with is saying, "Well, let's make it about you, because it is about you." It's nothing to do with her. Then we're making it about a parental expectation.
Pete Wright:
Yeah. And suddenly I needed to be taught some sort of a lesson. And in fact, the way you are presenting this, which I adore and abhor in stride, is that I am inviting this relationship. I am opening the door to being treated like a child. And that's not something I think about every day.
Jonathan Hassall:
And actually that's a fantastic point, Pete. One of the things, whenever a partner complains about another partner's behavior, my first question is how do you think you trained them into that?
Pete Wright:
Oh God. This hurts my head so much.
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah, right?
Jonathan Hassall:
I say, they look at me with this mixture of shock and outrage. "You're blaming this on me?" And not, I'm thinking, what behaviors have you, which they've been... Look, it's all been maladaptive, so let's just own that. But we train. If you've been with anyone for any length of time, you've trained a lot of the behaviors, particularly behaviors directed at you. So what have I done to create that?
Pete Wright:
Yeah, I need to take a knee on that one.
Nikki Kinzer:
There's a lot going on in my mind, because I'm just thinking too, it goes back to the communication too, right? I remember watching, because this was a live presentation that Stephanie Sarkis, I hope I didn't say her name right, did about gaslighting. And she was talking about why ADHDers are so much more at risk of being gaslighted because of low self-esteem and all of these things that can be factors.
And one of the things that she said is that if you're in a relationship that's starting to feel like they're being controlling or they're starting to have some kind of negative influence, that one of the preventative things that you can do is you argue back, you stand up for yourself. And when that starts to happen, then that person will go find somebody else that they can get away with, that they can do this and get away with it.
And I think about communication, and I think about relationships, and it's like I've seen it with my own friends and couples where they're like, they'll start to fight. We're at the dinner table, we're all having dinner together, and they're really treating each other very poorly. And I'm just sitting there thinking, oh my gosh, if this is how they're speaking in front of people, what do they talk, how do they talk to each other alone?
And so I'm just so curious about that communication piece, whether you have ADHD or not, that underlying respect that you have for your partner when that starts to go away, I don't know.
Jonathan Hassall:
Well, there's probably a few little gems in there, I think, Nikki. I think the idea of, let's start with the end, respect. Ultimately, if we do not have respect for each other, we do not have a relationship, simple. And so the mission has got to be to rediscover respect. And once we start hearing each other and hearing what people are seeing and understanding is we find the respect. And probably the shortcut to that is an agreement of assuming good intent.
I remember years ago, I was a national sales manager in pharmaceuticals, and I had a national team, so I'd fly around to see them. And most of the time we spoke on the phone, and it was sort of a bit of a tumultuous time in that company. And every time I rang someone, they assumed it was going to be bad news or something. And it made it like this uphill battle to even have a conversation.
So I pulled the whole team together and I said, "Hey guys, look. I'm here for you. If you don't do well, I don't do well. So that's as simple as that. So my whole job is helping you perform. And so can we agree, assume good intent that if any of us ring each other that we're assuming good intent? If any of us have bad intent now, let's tell each other. But otherwise, let's assume good intent."
And so we went forward with that and most of them embraced it, and it just worked so much better easily. It was as simple as that. We weren't friends necessarily. We got on, okay, we're good colleagues, but they didn't know me. They didn't know much about my personal life or anything like that, but we were able to very quickly just say, "Oh, yeah, okay, let's do that."
So we can start off to reestablish that respect or rediscover that respect because I think it's usually there. It's about going back and saying, "Okay, let's assume good intent. Let's assume that whatever is making me not respect you," and it's usually not that you don't respect their behavior. It could be that they're not performing, but it's often about what you think they're attacking you. It's a counterstrike thing.
So that's the first thing, respect has to be there. If it is not there, it doesn't go. And talking about rules of engagement, one of the rules Monica and I have always had, and I don't even know where it came from because we were like 22 and 23 when we got married. So she got me when I was really stupid.
Pete Wright:
Lucky girl.
Jonathan Hassall:
I don't know how I moved and walked around and did anything actually. I probably just stood in the corner and waited for her. But we never trash talk each other to other people, even if we're having a big fight about something. And we do, don't get me wrong, we do have disagreements. But even we're having a big fight about something and we're telling our best friends in the world, because they're not really our best friends. My best friend is Monica.
So if I'm going to be complaining, I'm complaining about how I'm feeling, I might complain about behavioral stuff, but I never attack her in front of anyone. That's part of the deal. I've always got her bag. And if someone came up to me and said, "Monica did this terrible thing," my first response would always be, "I don't think so. Really, what's bothering you?"
The second thing is we don't call each other names ever, never have, never will, even sort of. And I like playing with words and making little funny nicknames and stuff, but never anything disrespectful in that. That's always the deal. And relatively recently in our marriage, I like swearing. It's fun. And I love language and I love playing with language like that, and I am Australian, so [inaudible 00:42:34] in terms of language.
But she said to me one day, hey, we were having an argument about something. She said, "Hey, don't swear at me." And I said, "I wasn't swearing at you, I was just being expressive and crass and emotional." And she said, "Yeah. Do you swear at any of your clients?" And I said, "No." She said, "Well, don't swear at me because when you're swearing and you're looking at me, you're swearing at me."
Pete Wright:
That's not swearing adjacent, that's swearing at me.
Jonathan Hassall:
Yeah.
Nikki Kinzer:
Right.
Jonathan Hassall:
So that was a correction we built into the relationship. And I think they're wonderful signs of respect, that if we talk about... Melissa Orlov talks about intimate conflict, which I think is a really brilliant idea. A concept is the idea of how do we be upset with each other and at war, but keep things friendly and polite and safe. We're not going to use [inaudible 00:43:32] sort of thing.
What's the other thing you've raised? Oh, the gaslighting. Gaslighting, yeah, boundaries. The reason ADHD people can get rolled and it's like the doubt. You know the doubt when the boss comes up and says, "Hey, we've got a problem," and you immediately assume, "Shit, what did I do?"
Pete Wright:
Yeah, it's you.
Jonathan Hassall:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. We immediately assume we did something wrong, and then we go straight into defensive mode. And so you're not problem solving. I think the boundaries part is really important. And just like Monica set a boundary in that example with language with me, I think we've got to be able to set our boundaries with others. And we have to, like you said, Nikki, we got to work on our self-esteem because we were trained into this poor self-esteem.
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah, it's interesting. I can't say that I have followed your number one role because I probably have said some negative things at some point. But I am proud to say that we have never called each other names ever. It's never been an issue. It would be weird if we did it, I think we'd start laughing because it's just so unlike us.
Now, I know that some people can just throw those things around like nobody's business, and it's not the same impact. But for us, it would be a huge impact. I know if that happened, we are in dangerous territory.
Pete Wright:
That's the line. That's the bright red line.
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah. Something is really broken here because we just wouldn't do that. But I think that that is, it's going back to what are the boundaries? What are the rules of a relationship? What are you willing to... There's something that Kim Holderness and Penn Holderness, they were on our show last year, and there was a situation where he had forgotten his, or he lost his keys and she had to drive two hours to the beach to give him his keys. And as soon as she gets out of the car, she sees his keys on top of his truck.
Jonathan Hassall:
Shoot. I can associate with that.
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah. And I'm asking her, I'm like, "How did you not lose it?" Because here, you've taken two hours of your time to do this. Here they are. And she said, and I thought this was really interesting. She said, "I could tell by the look in his face that there was nothing I could say that would give him more shame or more embarrassment or frustration that he felt at that moment. And there wasn't any reason to add onto that."
She was like, "Was I mad? Was I angry? Absolutely." And she said, "But if I had felt like he didn't care or that he wasn't trying to manage his ADHD, those keys would've been thrown out into the ocean and he would've had to figure out his own way home." But she's like, "I know he's trying. I know that he's doing his best."
And I think there's something about that too, is that having that grace and understanding that the intention, and maybe it goes back to the intention is I'm not trying to make you mad, I'm not trying to hurt you and remembering that, because a lot of people would've thrown the keys out in the ocean anyway.
Jonathan Hassall:
Well, yeah. And I think that raises really another important awareness is that we bank goodwill, just like we're banking badwill. I think a lot of people get very scared that, oh, it'll be good and then it's all going to be terrible again, all you have to do is recall the goodwill. Now, obviously, and I remember Penn at the conference last year, that man has energy.
Nikki Kinzer:
Yes, he does.
Jonathan Hassall:
Pretty sure he leapt from the floor onto the stage in one single leap. I'm sure-
Pete Wright:
He did that. That was-
Jonathan Hassall:
[inaudible 00:47:30] involved, I don't know, but there was something. So yeah, I must be living under a rock because I wasn't really aware of the family and their fame. But watching those clips and hearing him talk, I thought, yeah, yeah, yeah, there's goodwill. There's goodwill in the bank there. And that respect and that goodwill and that ability for her to be able to use theory of mind to imagine what he was experiencing.
And you don't do that if you're at war or you shut down, you don't care what they're feeling. So to get all that goodwill in the bank means that you're lucky. I know in our relationship, if one of us has something go wrong, usually, and it might be because people without ADHD screw up too. Don't tell Monica I said that.
Pete Wright:
What? I'm shocked.
Jonathan Hassall:
This isn't going live or anything, is it? We don't have a massive following or anything, do you? But yeah, the thing we tend to always go back to, and we both do it and it's become a real automatic thing, a bit like Penn's wife is we think, "But what's the positive out of it?"
I remember years ago I was having a really rough time in the job I was in, and I was quite stressed, denied ADHD yet. And I was driving my car home from my very first ever appointment with a psychologist because I just didn't know. I just didn't know what to do with this workplace. It was mental health. And of course, the last thing I thought was going getting help. So I finally went to this psychologist and it was a really, really cathartic experience. She was really wonderful.
And on the way home, my car ran out of petrol because my petrol gauge is broken. And in true fashion, of course, I didn't think about getting it fixed. Instead, I had a system that combined between sticking a stick in my petrol tank and going, "Oh, that's how much I've got," or psychically judging how much petrol I had, which had variable effect.
But anyway, I ran out of petrol. I was right on the corner of this really busy roundabout about a kilometer from my house. And it was nighttime, and I got out of the car, but I'd had this wonderful, cathartic experience. And I rang Monica and said, "Look, I've run out of fuel. Can you come bring you some petrol?" And so she, of course, and we had little kids too, so she had to go and the kids into the car. It was a whole thing.
And I was standing there and I was beating myself up. But then one moment, just because I've had, it's where she said, "Use this time." And I just found, I thought, well, what do you mean by that? How am I going to use this time? I'm stuck in the middle of nowhere. It was pre having decent iPhones. So I got out of the car and stood beside the car and I realized the night air is really cool and sweet, which is a novelty in Brisbane. And there was traffic going past, but I was fine, I was safe and my family was safe. And then it started to rain.
Nikki Kinzer:
Oh no.
Jonathan Hassall:
But you know what, again, it was just a gentle rain. And I thought, wow, it's almost like I feel cleansed. It was just amazing switch, which I think was partially because of this cathartic session I just had. But also too, because my partner gave me, showed me the way to it by saying, "Use this."
And I think very often with the keys thing would be, hey, at least they're not in the ocean. Or at least we don't have to pay to get new keys cut and that sort of thing. So I think remember everyone, everything you bank in goodwill, you couldn't go and draw on to stop bad things.
Pete Wright:
And I think this goes back to your assumed goodwill story too. That reminder that grace is a choice, like we are giving and taking grace and asking for grace. And that's always a choice and can redefine the sort of stakes of our relationships along the way. I think that's really beautiful.
Jonathan Hassall:
Yeah. And the thing we don't always take into account, it actually pays us more. And we were in Sydney last weekend and we're getting with [inaudible 00:51:37]. We had a wonderful deep water harbor there that's just gorgeous. Please go to Sydney. It's fantastic. You can come see me in Brisbane too, if you like. Anyway, they've got ferries and I love the ferry, and we're getting off the ferry. And there was a little guy out there, and he wasn't little but a guy out there, and he's moving the plank that you walk across on and off manually.
And as I got off just instinctively, I said, "Hey, thanks, man." And he looked at me like, "Oh, oh, thanks," because then I realized everyone else walking past wasn't acknowledging him.
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Nikki Kinzer:
Right.
Jonathan Hassall:
And everyone's in a hurry. Everyone's trying to get off, and they're trying to be efficient and not hold anyone up. And so everyone's good intention. But I walked with my son, who is a beautiful human being, said to me, "Hey, that was really nice, dad." And I said, "Yeah, but you know what? It was nicer for me." That little sign of acknowledgement paid me back tenfold to what I gave him.
And I think that's worth remembering that any choice of grace you make, that you give to anyone else, particularly your partner, you're going to get immediate benefit.
Nikki Kinzer:
That's so true. And it's a good reminder too, of just like gratitude, like saying thank you to your partner when they're doing something nice and acknowledging that. Because I think the longer you are together with someone, the less likely that happens unfortunately because we just get so used in our habits and routines and kids and all of that.
But this is a different kind of relationship, but my kids are older. They're young adults now. But every time my husband or I make dinner, doesn't matter. They always say thank you at the end. They will always say, "Thank you so much for dinner. It was really good. Thank you for dinner." And it will never get old. I'll always appreciate that. And it makes me want to make dinner again.
Jonathan Hassall:
Exactly. Exactly. And that's a really good segue into another good thing, praise. So a lot of partners struggle with the idea of, particularly neurotypical partner, I say, "Don't be shy with the acknowledgement," and they interpret that as praise. So they say, "But why should I be praising them for something they should have been doing for the last 10 years?" And the weird idea that, oh, if I praise them, I'm actually creating a crutch for them, and like they're trained people that needs the fish and that wouldn't do it without the fish.
Pete Wright:
I don't want to build a culture of entitlement. They'll just expect it all the time.
Jonathan Hassall:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. But then ultimately I think it's about then I'm ultimately still responsible for making it happen by praising them. And so the first thing we start with is, well, let's understand ADHD a little bit. We keep talking out where these big emotional powerhouses that we're emotionally reactive, that we think emotionally most of the time. That's one of the big challenges, turning on attention and creating directed emotion as part of the challenge with ADHD.
So we know we can be triggered easily emotionally. Why don't we use that? I said to my wife and my daughters once, because I had two girls first and all my kids are grown up now. And I grew up with four boys in my family, so we're like this strange, unusual country, which was fantastic. But I said to them, "I'm a really simple machine. There's this big button here and here, and one is nice emotions, the other one is not nice emotions. Hit the nice emotion one because you'll get whatever you want." And one of my daughters is really good at that, really... Happy button.
And it's that simple. So I said, "We know that, so why not use that?" Why not know that if you acknowledge somebody, and there's a difference between acknowledgement and praise, where if you acknowledge somebody, then like you just said, Nikki, they're going to do it 10 times better.
If Monica comes and gives me a little pick on the cheek and says, "Hey, thanks for making the bed this morning," because that was ironic to us which I won't bore you with. But I know what it means to her because she likes to lay out her clothes and choose her outfits and stuff on the bed because evidently we don't have a walk-in wardrobe, which evidently is critical in a person's life but that's another story.
Nikki Kinzer:
That's true.
Pete Wright:
Yeah, that's a splinter.
Jonathan Hassall:
But she does that. I tell you what, I will make that bed so well for the next, it'll be hospital corners for good. And so that's the thing. If you want to see that behavior repeated, acknowledge that behavior and [inaudible 00:56:15]. The other thing is to praise versus acknowledgement. Praise is a pat on the head for being a good kid. No one really needs that. What we need is acknowledgement because we're adults. We make choices to do or not do things. So if you want to thank me, acknowledge what it meant to you.
So, "That was a great dinner, dad. I love what you did with the fish," or, "You have to show me how you did that," or, "Thanks for making the bed. It made my life easier this morning," or picking me up, it saved me an hour getting back from uni and that sort of thing. You do that sort of thing, and I'm going to be motivated to do that all day long.
And then the last part of that, sorry, it's a bit of a diatribe, is how often are we acknowledging our partners. With ADHD, we do become a bit blind to it. Every partner sort of blend into our life. How often are we actually acknowledging them and saying, "Hey, I appreciate that," or I appreciate, or even when something goes wrong, "I appreciate your patience with this."
Pete Wright:
That's a great point. And as it happens behind the scenes, we actually recorded a conversation with Melissa Orlov just this morning, our time. And she made note of this concept of understanding phases of the relationship. And all of those things that you're talking about are so sort of rudimentary, so foundational to the courtship phase when we're trying to impress one another and surprise one another and be romantic.
But boy, it takes work to maintain over a year, five years, 25 years, to maintain that level of attentiveness to acknowledgement, of attentiveness and awareness that they're doing things in support of your relationship every day. And what are you doing to share the load?
Jonathan Hassall:
And the big opportunity here for people with ADHD is your partner is actually pretty good at adapting. Neurotypical people are actually pretty good at adapting once they understand what's going on. Now with ADHD, our challenges with adapting aren't about understanding, they're about self-regulation. So when we think about that, if I introduce a behavior that's positive in the relationship, my partner will adapt really fast, basically acknowledging me.
And the other good point there too is that numbness that's developed around acknowledgement and the courtship is when we were dating, we were 10-foot tall, bulletproof, and never got sick. And you had an immune system that could kill a cow and all that sort of stuff. Well, why wouldn't we choose to have that still? And we say, "Oh, but we're tired and we're busy and we know each other so well now," which I debate.
But this comes back to, I think particularly, and I'm speaking from the ADHD perspective, is about emotional direction. I always talk to people about, there's two phases of emotion. There's the reactive stage emotion, which is default mode. Then there's, it's meant to be pushed into attention and we're meant to objectively choose what we want. And then we create the summary emotion for that, which is the directed emotion. And that's what we struggled to do with ADHD, and probably attention is the linchpin in that.
But if we can create behaviors that encourage it, so for example, my favorite one is priming. So before you walk through a door, imagine who's on the other side of it and who you want to be for them. Now, whether that's a boss who's about to tear you a new one or whether it's your partner, or whether it's from one of your kids, or whether it's your mother or whoever it is, sorry, flashbacks.
Nikki Kinzer:
I know I saw that. I heard the dip in the voice.
Jonathan Hassall:
I love it really, but we have a complex relationship. Probably too much alike is probably the problem, which I don't know that she'd agree with. But if we stop and do that, it actually gives you this little emotional blueprint and you get to go in and be that person. Now, my little thing I do, because Monica gets up before me because she's a better person and exercises and stuff.
Anyway, when I lie in bed in the morning and I have a few minutes to think, I always think, who's my house? And Monica is usually my house and the goal is to keep Monica in my house. And with Monica, it's really simple. With my son, it's like, who do I choose to be for him? Blah, blah, blah, blah. With Monica, it's do I choose to be in love today? And in love, not do I choose to love Monica because I love Monica. There's no two ways about it. I adore her, but do I choose to be in love? Now that's back to that courtship phase.
Now I just think that, and I answer the question and I better be honest. I don't always say yes. Occasionally I'm being sulky boy and I say no. Most of the time I say yes, and when I do, I go upstairs and Monica's usually upstairs doing something and she'll notice it. She'll say, "Oh, you're affectionate this morning." She'll be affectionate back to me. And again, it's like catnip. If you've got ADHD, you get positive emotions, man.
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Nikki Kinzer:
You want more, yeah.
Pete Wright:
It's huge. Yeah.
Nikki Kinzer:
That's great. That's a great way to look at, just to think about who do I want to be?
Pete Wright:
You're fantastic, man. Can we make this not a one and done? Will you come back and talk to us some more?
Jonathan Hassall:
You guys are great.
Pete Wright:
Oh, man.
Nikki Kinzer:
So are you.
Pete Wright:
This such a treat. Thank you so, so much. Where do you want to send people to learn more about your work for the?
Jonathan Hassall:
Always connectadhd.com where you can find all of our stuff where we work. And like I said, I work with people all over the world and you can make the time zones work. We've also got got a book out that I put about a year ago called Decoding Doing, which is about procrastination and ADHD that I wrote with a clinical psychologist friend of mine, Madeline O'Reilly, who's wonderful. But that's probably the main way you'll find us. Also, I'm speaking at the online conference, the CHADD, ACO, ADDA Conference.
Nikki Kinzer:
Yes.
Jonathan Hassall:
It was so much easier when we just called it CHADD.
Nikki Kinzer:
Right. I know.
Jonathan Hassall:
We know everyone's involved, but let's just...
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Jonathan Hassall:
ADDA is probably saying we're so much easier when it was just the ADDA Conference. But you used to be a board member with ADDA and I love those guys deeply, so yeah. So that's where you can find me. God, that turned into a story.
Pete Wright:
Excellent.
Jonathan Hassall:
I'm sorry.
Pete Wright:
Do you know what? I'm going to put all those links in there. Don't even worry about it. All the links are going to be in there and you got to go learn more about Jonathan Hassall and his lovely professional wife, partner, Monica, who is now a delight in her own right. This has been great, Jonathan. Thank you.
And thank you everybody for downloading and listening to this show. We so appreciate your time and your attention. And don't forget if you have something to contribute to the conversation, we're heading over to the show talk channel in our Discord server, and you can join us right there by becoming a supporting member at the deluxe level or better. On behalf of Nikki Kinzer and Jonathan Hassall, I'm Pete Wright, and we'll see you right back here next week on Taking Control: The ADHD Podcast.
