Adult diagnosis of ADHD is, by all our evidence on this show, an enormously liberating thing. We learn so much about ourselves, put a clear and cogent frame around our experience, that we can truly change the way we relate to the world around us. There’s baggage that comes to this experience late in life, however: many of us live in a culture that puts outsized value on achievement and success in the young. There’s a brewing conversation on the value of late bloomers, particularly but not exclusively in the US, and it’s time to talk about the values that come along with blooming late — and what other late bloomers can learn from those who’ve been blooming late with ADHD all along.
Welcome to the club, late bloomers. Glad to have you.
Links & Notes
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Pete: Hello, everybody, and welcome to "Taking Control: The ADHD Podcast" on RashPixel.FM. I'm Pete Wright, and right over there is Nikki Kinzer.
Nikki: Hello. Hello, Pete Wright.
Pete: Hello. How are ya?
Nikki: I'm doing well. Hello, everybody out there.
Pete: Well, it was a big weekend, Nikki, big weekend. Pokemon came out, took my son to see Pokemon, the movie "Detective Pikachu." Yeah.
Nikki: Did you like it?
Pete: Yeah. Mmh.
Nikki: Not really?
Pete: Okay. Well, as a movie nerd, it succeeds at doing exactly what it needs to do.
Nikki: Okay, entertains people?
Pete: It's a kids movie. Ryan Reynolds is funny because he's always funny, even with a lackluster script. And if you play any of the Pokemon games, if you've been collecting the cards for the, you know, last 20 years, this movie is a giant Easter egg. And clearly, the people who made the movie have a lot of love for it. And that is awesome. It's also a product movie. Like, it just wants you to love the products even more. And so, as somebody who plays the game with my son, I really enjoyed it because I totally speak the language, you know what I mean? Like, it's my language. And we had such a fun like father-son jam at that movie.
Nikki: Oh, that's so nice.
Pete: If you don't play it, don't go see the...You're not gonna understand it. It might as well be in Japanese if you don't like playing the game. But that was our big Pre-Mother's Day thing, then we had Mother's Day, which was very exciting. So Happy Mother's Day to all the moms out there and all the wanna be moms, and all the former moms, and all the moms. Just much, much love out there too to you. All right, so, can we talk about my thing?
Nikki: What's your thing?
Pete: It's been nagging me since our conversation with Dr. Hallowell last week.
Nikki: Loved that conversation.
Pete: He is the man. He really is the man. He introduced us to this book that he's written, that is all done but isn't gonna come out until next year, which is crushing, called "Finding your Right Difficult." And that concept has been really nagging me, in the context of ADHD. And I wanna talk all about that. I wanna talk about patience. I wanna talk about being a late bloomer. And I wanna talk about people who are late to understanding what a late bloomer is. I wanna talk about all of that this week, thanks to another new book that I've just discovered. Before we do that, head over to takecontroladhd.com to get to know us a little bit better.
You can listen to the show right there on the website or subscribe to the mailing list. And we'll let you know by email each time a new episode is released. Of course, you can find us on Twitter or Facebook @takecontrolADHD, and all the other podcast applications out there. Overcast is fantastic, and Downcast, and Pocket Casts, and these are all great. RadioPublic is fantastic. We had a couple of people on our discord channel ask, remind them, "What is that podcast that Pete was talking about?" RadioPublic is great. And yes, we're on Google Play and Spotify too. But, you know, they're last on my list. Okay. I have an email from listener Dave. Who is amazing.
Nikki: What does Dave have to say?
Pete: Well, so listener Dave wrote us a long time ago, back in the days of March, the early days of March. And he wrote from Massachusetts and he said he'd just started listening to us a month ago, and that he was set to go in for an assessment, right? This was like, he was excited about the show, and he wanted to share that enthusiasm and getting educated on ADHD. He said, "I think this is me. I think this is who I am. But I need to go in for an assessment." And so we exchanged a couple of emails after that initial one and I just want to share a note, a public shout out, a billboard of congratulations because listener Dave has written in and he said, "Hey, Pete. I just wanted to follow through and let you know that my evaluation concluded this week. And after a very intense couple of sessions, I have a diagnosis which confirmed my suspicions, ADHD with a companion diagnosis of anxiety and depression. After getting the news, I felt such a cluster of conflicting emotions as you would expect, but I'm on a path now that looks much more real than anything I've been able to imagine in the last 10 years. I'm not sure where to go from here, but I know I have to work every day to stay on this path and stay focused on improving my everyday life, one baby step at a time, right? Thanks again for the wonderful podcast. I look forward to every new episode and I resonate with everything you have to say, your perspective, and how you respond to your struggles. Have a great weekend, Dave."
Dave, thank you for following up, for writing in and sharing that note, because it is worthy of great congratulations to follow through, and actually get the diagnosis confirmed because that's hard to do. It's just hard to do. And so you deserve the kudos from us, kudos from the community. It's great, and welcome to the club.
Nikki: That's awesome. Yes. I love the follow-up too. I think that's great that he wanted to let us know where he's at. So that's great. Congratulations, Dave.
Pete: Okay. So here's the thing that was nagging me about "Finding the Right Difficult" Nikki.
Nikki: Yeah. What is it?
Pete: Why does it take so long for those of us with ADHD to find our jam? Why does it take so long?
Nikki: Well, what do you mean by jam?
Pete: Like, this was the thing that he said. The premise of Dr. Hallowell's book, right, Ned Hallowell's new book. He's writing this book called "Finding the Right Difficult" is that you need to find the challenge that is both inspirational enough to you that you are able to overcome the obstacles in the path to mastery, right, to excellence. That's how I heard it. Is that how you heard it?
Nikki: Yes. You know, I think you've been thinking about it more than I have.
Pete: Well, you've had a busy weekend.
Nikki: Yeah, I've had kind of busy weekend. Because I remember him mentioning the book, and I remember thinking the title was fantastic because it's just a really great title. But then I think what I resonated more was with his autobiography. Like, when he was talking about that, I was like, "Oh, I really wanna read that book too. And I wanna read this book when it comes out in like 2020." So to me, it was like, it felt so far away. So, I'm just gonna say, yes, I agree with you. Because I have really nothing else to really follow that up with.
Pete: Yeah. Well, no, what it was for me is he kept saying like, writing was his difficult, right? Writing was the thing where he could sit down and write. And even though it was hard, it induced him to keep going, right? That was the thing that he could engage his hyper-focus when needed. He could persevere through the challenges, and actually, you know, get the job done. And he found his jam, right? That was his difficult. That was the thing that allowed him to eventually succeed, right?
Nikki: We're not talking about strawberry jam or grape jam, we're talking about writing jam?
Pete: But we could. I mean, maybe you need to be a berry farmer and that is...
Nikki: And that's your jam.
Pete:...literally, your jam.
Nikki: Yeah, I get it.
Pete: So, anyhow, it just started making me think, why does it take so long? And what are the skills that come with, you know, having to constantly revisit this search for whatever comes next in our search for whatever our difficulty is, whatever career success is. Why do we have to keep revisiting and is that a thing that normal people have to deal with, right? Like, what is it, like in our culture today, that makes that a reality for us? And then I found this other book, this interview, just this weekend. And this one's really been nagging me. I haven't finished the book. The book just came out. So I'm about halfway through it. And it is by a young man, I say young man, he is the editor of "Forbes." His name is Rich Karlgaard. You've heard of "Forbes"?
Nikki: Oh, of course, right.
Pete: Like, magazine.
Pete: So he publishes "Forbes." He has spent a career celebrating the culture of, you know, earnings, and achievement, and the rat race. And his previous books are like "Team Genius: The New Science of High-Performing Organizations" and "The Soft Edge: Where Great Companies Find Lasting Success," right? I mean, he's very much kind of a future thinker, future forward, the value of moving fast, and doing amazing things, and celebrating the 30 under 30 great people, young entrepreneurial women under 30, right? I mean, they have all their special issues, and really, like they are taking part in a culture of achievement, aggressive culture of achievement. I think it's hard once you're 31 to start thinking, "Gosh, is this really the way I live? Am I done? Like, should I just put a fork in it? Like, there's nothing."
Nikki: That is really depressing.
Pete: It's really depressing. And so I was so interested to see this book that just came out April 19. His book, Rich Karlgaard, editor of Forbes, right, "Late Bloomers: The Power of Patience in a World Obsessed with Early Achievement."
Nikki: "The Power of Patience in a World Obsessed with Early Achievement" Well, isn't that a little ironic?
Pete: Well, it makes me think that Rich Karlgaard just turned 31, right?
Nikki: And he's wondering what's going on. Right. Right. I've gotta change my angle a little bit. Yeah.
Pete: Well, and this is what's so interesting about this for me, is that, you know, clearly, he's a seasoned professional. He's had decades in the business as a both an editor, and a publisher, and a writer, and a reporter. And in, you know, Silicon Valley, he certainly has a unique if sort of fishbowl view of what achievement is in technology, in the technology sector, pharmaceutical sector, and things that happen in Silicon Valley that don't necessarily happen outside of Silicon Valley. And so I started kind of rifling through this. I listened to a couple of interviews. He did a TED talk, that I thought was really...
So I really kind of dove in headfirst. And I wanna share a little bit about what he's getting at. And talk about the connections that come to this celebration of achievement, and how his perspective is impacted by the idea that we have to slow down, and we have to take advantage of experience, and we have to look at how the world has changed, and how we may be taking part in a negative cycle, you know, that's leading to negative things. I think, my theory is, we with ADHD, especially adult diagnosis, we've been doing this all along. So, welcome to the party pal.
Nikki: That's right.
Pete: You know what I'm saying? All right. So he starts with this premise on racial diversity, and gender diversity, and gender identity diversity, that all of these things we're doing our best to be welcoming to so many different perspectives. We're trying so hard, even when it's really hard to know that we're trying hard to be welcoming and woke to all of these different categories of diversity, right? Diversity of thought, diversity of race, diversity of gender. And that makes teams better. But one area and one of the premises that I'm dealing with, that he presents here, is that cognitive diversity is not judged the same way as other kinds of diversity. If you're not a prodigy, right? If you're not in the best kindergarten, if you're not in the best schools, if you don't go to the best colleges, if you're not accepted into the Stanford's and the Ivy's, that there is a celebration of those who achieve that kind of cognitive difference, and everybody else is disregarded, right? That's kind of one of his premises. What do you think about it? How does that hit you?
Nikki: Well, I absolutely agree. And what's interesting about it is I had never really thought of it that way, right? I mean, because you're so right. It's like we're always looking at the other type of diversities, or, you know, how does diversity help us in teams and in tools, I mean, all of that. We want that diversity in our world. But you're right. When it comes to achievement and when people hit certain achievements, it's a different ballgame, a completely different way that we look at that. And you also think about it, just like learning, that's also kind of what connected with me. As a child, if you're learning, you know, you're in a learning environment, our school systems are so set up for one type of learning, that we're not giving our students that diversity of learning in a different way, either.
Pete: Well, that is an interesting observation. One of the things that he talks about is how we are able to find the standout achievers, right? And he starts by talking about athletics, particularly football, and baseball, and basketball. And he says, you know, it's very hard to be a good player and not be discovered at some level, right? Because we have filter, upon filter, upon filter, from parents, to boosters, to coaches, to recruiters, to, you know, college clubs, all of these things. If you show any modicum of promise, you'll be found if you want to do it. Like, if you show that kind of stand up promise, you'll be found. And his premise is, does the same kind of standout performance like filtering happen in other areas? Particularly for like if you didn't bloom on time, right? If you didn't hit those milestones of expectation, if it took you until you were 35 to figure out who you were when you grew up, then how do you get discovered if you've already been discarded, so to speak, culturally discarded?
How do you get discovered? Again, we don't have the filters that account for that. And I thought that was an interesting parallel. You know, I don't have a sense for how true it is, how real it is. But that was his assessment. He interviewed Carol Dweck. We've talked about Carol a number of times on the show, the author of "MindSet." And, you know, the research she had done for her book was back in 2006, and she's been constantly updating it. And she had gone through the process of updating it in the last two or three years. And Karlgaard interviewed her and said, "What's different about the kids that you interviewed in 2006, who got into Stanford, those freshmen, and the kids who are getting in as freshman today?" And she said, "Oh, well, the kids who get in today, they're freshmen, and I sit down to talk with them, and they're already brittle, exhausted, and broken."
Nikki: And is that because they've worked so hard to get into Stanford? Like, the steps to getting into any university is different than it used to be, the pressure?
Pete: Well, I think so. I mean, I think that's the impression. And I'll say that this is, you know, potentially a uniquely U.S.-centric perspective, right? And we are just going through this right now. You know, my daughter this week is sitting down for an AP Econ exam at the college across the street, and she's got, you know, SATs, and ACTs that she's taken. And so, you know, here we are, we've created this system where we start them early, very early in reading and math, and then we proceed to test the hell out of them for, you know, 12 years until we give them one final test for three-and-a-half hours, and their achievement on that test likely determines the availability of options in front of them. And even if...
Nikki: That just makes me so sad.
Pete: Well, it is sad. And even if, you know, here I am, from my perspective now, decades after that experience, and I can say with, you know, great enthusiasm as somebody who has spent years educating college students and graduate students, that there are all kinds of second chapters. That doesn't matter. My perspective doesn't matter. What matters is the fact that when she is 16, my daughter has been taught that this matters and the weight of the world is on this test, right? That's the problem, I think that we have. It's like that race has been inculcated in our cultural understanding. So, the ADHD perspective, I feel like I've been banging my head against this all my life, it's at the root of all of the shame that comes with doing well. It doesn't matter if you do well if you don't do it first, right? If you're not at the top of your class, if you're not first in an industry, if you're not first to publish, if you're not first to release, you know. There's always that race, that feeling of being behind high-performers. It's not some new cultural eruption for those of us living with ADHD, right? It's Monday, 8:00 AM. That's how we live with it. So I don't know. Am I talking about something that you relate to with the clients that you work with?
Nikki: Oh, for sure. Absolutely. Well, and it's just interesting to...It's just a different perspective. Like, I really haven't sat and thought about this. And so you're bringing up some really good points. Also kind of depressing when it comes to the school systems just because I think it has changed so much when we were getting into college, in the athletics especially too. I mean, the athletics are awful. It's like, you have to be in a club sport to ever even be considered to be on the high school team now, you know. And if you're not in the club, then you're not gonna be considered to be a college athlete, where it used to just be the high schools. I mean, the whole thing has just really been...it has changed. And there's a lot of pressure.
Pete: Well, yeah, and I would say, even beyond just the systems. I mean, the systems that are created around, the school systems, and the sports systems, those are systems that are created around, you know, the parents who are part of it, and the, you know, administer...I mean, it's just, we did this together.
Nikki: We certainly did.
Pete: We all share responsibility here. And I don't want it to come off like I'm just showing up here to complain about, you know, recruiting systems, because I'm really not. Like, I think we share responsibility both in how we got here, and, frankly, how we get ourselves out of it. And if you've ever felt this kind of pressure living with ADHD, if you've ever felt like the race is something that causes you shame and that is something that you are being judged, which I have, and I feel like I'm coming at that from a place of expertise...
Nikki: And you're not alone.
Pete:...at least empirically.
Nikki: There's many people.
Pete: And I'm not alone, but I don't wanna speak for all y'all, right? Then I think this is worth thinking about. So, one of the things that he has pointed out that I thought was interesting comes from the work of a gentleman named, he's an NYU City University Neurologist named Elkhonon Goldberg. That name is fantastic, E-L-K-H-O-N-O-N, Elkhonon. Elkhonon, he sounds like he's out of "Dune," the Baron, Elkhonon.
Nikki: That's right.
Pete: Oh, nerds are gonna love that. So, he has done some research. And, you know, we talk about this thing, executive functioning, this part of your brain, the prefrontal cortex doesn't actually finish developing until 25. Get a load of this. He's on the frontiers, right? And I don't know that there are a lot of, in the neuroscience community, that agree with him yet, but he's really pushing on this boundary. And he's suggesting in fact, that many of the functions, the executive functioning parts of our brain, that our brain does not, in fact, finish developing until your 30s, your 40s, your 50s, right? And the boundary he's pushing on, in particular, saying, look, there comes with the beauty of experience and what happens in the brain, right? The neurophysiology of the brain is that it continues to make new connections and is incredibly plastic, and allows you to develop what he's calling wisdom. And he has written a book called I think, "The Wisdom Paradox" something like that, you can find it on his website, link in the show notes. Where he talks about like, this is the thing we need to think about. Stop thinking that you just stopped developing, your brain is baked at 25. We need to let go of that and realize that you can continue to learn, and continue to change, and continue to develop, and continue to train yourself, and be able to contribute in new ways, well into what normally we considered finished brain development. You're not done yet. And whatever you think of Elkhonon Goldberg, and his work, and I have not read his work, I'm only discovering him today. I really like the message of, "You're not done yet. You're just not done yet. You are plastic. You are moldable. You are changeable."
Nikki: It's the growth mindset.
Pete: Yes. Right.
Nikki: I think it really is just extending...
Pete: Thank you, Carol Dweck, right? Right back to it.
Nikki: Yeah. You're extending to the growth mindset. And so I have a question that when he says that the prefrontal cortex and executive functioning only develops in the 30s to 50s, is that?
Pete: No, no. That's not what he said. What he said is...
Nikki: I'm reading your notes.
Pete: Yeah. My notes are shorthand. What he's saying is, there is this accepted kind of norm now that, you know, we talk about it mostly in the context of teenagers who do stupid things, but I say that in quotes, right? That you can't expect teenagers to be able, you know...
Nikki: To think the way a 40-year-old would think.
Pete:...to think the way a 40-year-old was because their brain doesn't finish developing until they're 25. And what they're talking about there is the prefrontal cortex is not developing...Well, and with ADHD, in particular, your motor cortex is baked really early, and that's what causes you to kind of have a lot of energy and move.
Nikki: Well, and that's what I was gonna ask, if there was a difference between ADHD and non-ADHD. Like, is he talking to just one audience or is he talking...?
Pete: He's talking about everybody.
Nikki: Just everyone, this is the case?
Pete: Yeah. Elkhonon is not talking about ADHD.
Nikki: Right. Right. Okay.
Pete: Right. And so that's what we're talking about here, is that, even in the non-ADHD crowd, that there is reasonable doubt as to whether the brain is finished baking at 25.
Nikki: I think that's really good news.
Pete: That's great news. I think it's terrific news. So, it makes me curious to read his books and see just how, you know, those who say he might be baddie, why do they say he's baddie? Like why is he on the bleeding edge of this stuff? You know, and I don't speak neurophysiology, so, you know, I need somebody to translate that. But the point is that there is opportunity here. So, our author here, Rich, he has this list of six values. Six core values that are embodied in the late Bloomer. And I really liked this list. I really liked this list because I read this and I thought, "Oh, my God, these are my ADHD adult pals."
Nikki: Yeah, these are the strengths.
Pete: I wanted to run down them. And so I would like to say them and I would very much like for you to tell me how you see them embodied in your ADHD pals, like me.
Nikki: You're my pal.
Pete: Please tell me what you think of me. Number one is Curiosity. Late bloomers are curious.
Nikki: Absolutely. In fact, in my groups last week, we did a find your strengths session, where everybody was gonna talk about their strengths. And I would say that probably, let's see, I think there was five people in one group. And I would say at least two or three people put curiosity as one of their strengths.
Pete: And that's one of those that you can feel. Like, it's a strength that you know you have it. Like you are the one who's always asking questions.
Nikki: You want more. You wanna know more. Yeah.
Pete: Right. Right. Right. Number two, Compassion and by extension, Empathy.
Pete: I don't know why that is. I wonder sometimes if that is because it's easy to look outward when you're always looking outward at other stuff, right? Like when your attention is constantly moving around. It's easy to see, you know, when attention is needed. You know what I mean?
Nikki: Yeah, yeah, I think so. I mean, maybe they're a little more intuitive. Like, they can see somebody who needs help, and they may have been in that position before, and they can see that, and they wanna help. Yeah, absolutely. On the opposite end of that, I've also seen where, you know, people tend to wanna be people pleasers at the expense of their own selves. And that's where you have to kind of be kind of careful.
Pete: Yes. Like, that codependent vibe.
Nikki: Yeah, yeah. Or, right, just doing too much and then getting taken advantage of.
Pete: How about resilience?
Nikki: Remember this, just a few weeks ago, Pete, this is a strength of yours.
Pete: Who knew?
Pete: And this keeps coming up. It keeps coming up.
Nikki: It's important.
Pete: I love this one. And, I don't know, it makes me think back to my escape room experience. And I think maybe this is not exactly true. It's Equanimity, ability to be calm under pressure.
Nikki: It's the adrenaline. From the studies that I've researched and read about ADHD, a lot of firefighters, first responders, you know, people who are Navy Seals, I mean, these are people who have ADHD because they thrive on the adrenaline and they can be calm under pressure. And, you know, thank God for them. We need them.
Pete: Yeah. It's interesting. I wonder how much that's a result of just, like, if I were sitting down to do my taxes, I'd have to set alarms to make me do it or stop playing video games or whatever it is, maybe it's because I can become numb to external stimulus putting pressure on me to think in a certain way. If I'm in the zone, you know, if I'm really working under pressure, it's pretty easy to ignore external pressures, you know. I feel like that's the thing. Number five is Wisdom. And this is what I was getting at with Elkhonon Goldberg work. His book is called "The Wisdom Paradox" and it might be worth looking up if you're into such things. And the final is Persistence.
Nikki: You bet.
Pete: Number six is persistence. So, listen...
Nikki: Don't give up.
Pete:...to this, ADHD people, come on, like, he just outlined...
Pete:...late bloomers, this new thing, that late bloomers need to continue to...Well, yes, absolutely. We've been living with this since we were diagnosed, since we were 15, since we were 25, since we were 35. This is your life right here. One of my very favorite metaphors that came out of this experience, and then I'll shut up, is this idea of repotting. And I really like the way he puts this, especially because, you know, the sun is out right now, and things are blooming. He talks about the fact that there are orchid people and there are dandelion people, right? And he says, you know, dandelion people, they can thrive anywhere. You give them sun and just a drop of moisture, and they'll grow everywhere, right? But orchid people require a very particular set of conditions and circumstances to thrive. And sometimes, in his case, you know, these are the late bloomers, right? People who have taken all their lives to figure out what those conditions are. I would argue sometimes with ADHD, a lot of times with ADHD. We have to think about ourselves in the context of being orchid people. We're orchid people. And to find the right set of circumstances, we have to repot. We just have to stop and say, "What I'm doing now is not who I'm meant to be. And that's okay. There is no shame, there is no judgment. It's okay to stop and change." And I love that.
Nikki: But I love what you're saying here in the notes you have, because you say, "Repotting is being intentional about the conditions that make you thrive and taking responsibility to change your circumstances to make sure you bloom. I love it. Intentional, I love that word. One of my favorite words.
Pete: Yeah, me too. I really, really resonate with this whole idea, you know, that we live long lives and why are we in such a rush in the first 20 years of a life that is 100 years long? Why are we in such a rush? Why do I go to events and why am I asked where I went to college? Why does it matter? Why does it matter my education experience from 20 years ago, 25 years ago? It doesn't matter. Everything has changed since I was there. The fact that I was a Drew grad, or a CU grad, or, you know, why does any rational thinking person care about an education experience that was 25 years ago, when the world has changed? And I've learned so much, more and more valuable information, and that I've integrated based on my experience since then, it gave me a start that was merely a start for the change that was yet to come. So, I feel pretty strongly about this stuff. And I'm excited to see the conversation that comes out of it. So please jump into discord and let us know. We really want to hear what you think about this stuff.
Nikki: All right, Pete.
Pete: It is one thing that he did say that I think was an interesting standout. He said, "Late bloomers versus ageism," right? There's this thing. You know what? Aren't we really just being ageist, right? When we say that late bloomers are discarded. Like, if you're over 30, you're discarded. And he comes back and he says, you know, there are things where this sort of race for the youth in professional circumstances is really great. Like, you want young people who are in marketing and advertising consumer trends, like these, that's where you want these people to be because they have an intuitive sense of trends. What is driving forward, what is cool, what is interesting.
But, you know, they don't have that wisdom thing yet. And that's okay. They'll get it. They don't have to race to pretend to be wise. They'll get it by just waking up and living every day. And it is the next phase of your life. You have to embrace the next chapter, whatever that next chapter is. So, I know that there are some folks in our community who are going through these kinds of changes where they're having to face the idea of repotting. And so it's super resonant to me. And you know, I wanna share to all of those who are facing this, you're in the right place to be asking these questions of yourself, and of your future, and I'm proud of you. I love it.
Nikki: Me too. Great. Thank you, Pete.
Pete: Well, thank you, Nikki Kinzer. You know what I didn't say at all? I didn't say at all to jump into the Patreon. Did I talk about Patreon? I didn't say that at all.
Nikki: I don't think so.
Pete: If you haven't explored our Patreon channel, patreon.com/theadhdpodcast, and you're a regular listener to this show, I sure hope you will jump over there and take a look. And if you are so moved this fine day, throw us a buck or five, and jump into the group, and join the discord channel, our online community. It is a flowing river of ADHD talk and support, and it's amazing. And you should check it out. Again, patreon.com/theadhdpodcast. We appreciate your support there and for this show. Thank you for supporting us, for paying our costs, patreons, and for listening to me ramble on today. I hope that something that I've talked about has been moving to you. And on behalf of Nikki Kinzer, I'm Pete right. We'll catch you next week right here on "Taking Control: The ADHD Podcast."