Natural Approaches to Navigating ADHD with Aviva Nirenberg
Aviva Nirenberg has ADHD in the family. Mom of three children with ADHD, and non-ADHD spouse of a husband with ADHD, her coaching career started with the lived experience in helping her family navigate the world while living with ADHD. Now, she's a certified ADHD and Family Coach and is one of our valued coaches here at Take Control ADHD.
This week on the show, Aviva joins us to talk about natural approaches to navigating your ADHD. No, that doesn't mean supplements and such, but rather a simple, straight-forward re-assessment of how you handle sleep, exercise, and nutrition — and how they work together for your body and brain.
Learn more about Aviva and her coaching with TCA. And, if you're looking for the countertop herb garden, it's Aerogarden, and here's the Amazon link to it.
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Pete Wright:
Hello everybody and welcome to Taking Control the ADHD podcast on True Story FM. I'm Pete Wright and I'm here with Nikki Kinzer.
Nikki Kinzer:
Hello, everyone. Hello Pete Wright.
Pete Wright:
Are you eating your moon drop grapes, Nikki?
Nikki Kinzer:
No, but I will eat the cotton candy ones.
Pete Wright:
I don't know anything about this. We've been talking about the genetically modified grapes outside of the show and apparently they're quite delicious.
Nikki Kinzer:
I just wish that they... I wish that grapes really did taste like cotton candy, but I know that it's fake. It has to be... Something's not right with that.
Pete Wright:
I put a lot of fake stuff in my food. It's fine. But cotton candy is not the first thing I would have expected.
Nikki Kinzer:
No.
Pete Wright:
In a grape. But we are on that subject. We're talking about natural approaches to navigating ADHD and before you think, "Oh, natural approaches, that's like... it's a bunch of hooey. It's not. We're talking about sleep and nutrition and exercise and how those three things help you live with your ADHD more comfortably. And we have a fantastic guest on the show. Aviva Nirenberg is here. Aviva is a new coach to Take Control ADHD. We love Aviva. We're so glad to be able to introduce Aviva to you on the show today. Before we do that, head over to takecontroladhd.com, get to know us a little bit better. You can listen to the show on the website or subscribe to the mailing list right there on the homepage and we'll send you an email with the latest episode each week. You can connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, or Pinterest at Take Control ADHD.
But to really connect with us, head over to our Discord server. You can jump into the general community and chat with us, with everybody in the public channel visit takecontroladhd.com/discord. You'll be whisked over to that general invitation and login page if you are looking for a little bit more. Particularly if this show has helped you or touched you or helped you live a better relationship with your ADHD, we invite you to support the show directly through Patreon. Patreon is listener supported podcasting. With just a few dollars a month, you can help guarantee that we continue to grow the show, add new features, invest more heavily in our community. Visit patreon.com/theADHDpodcast to learn more. Nikki, do we have news?
Nikki Kinzer:
Not right now. We want to go straight to Aviva.
Pete Wright:
We're news free. Excellent. Then let's pull back the curtain. Aviva, let us begin. Aviva Nirenberg has ADHD in the family. Mom of three with ADHD, a non-ADHD spouse of a husband with ADHD. Her coaching career started with the lived experience in helping her family navigate the world while living with ADHD. Now she's a certified ADHD and family coach and is one of our valued coaches here at Take Control ADHD. Aviva, welcome to the ADHD podcast.
Aviva Laura Nirenberg:
Thank you very much. Thank you for that introduction.
Nikki Kinzer:
Hello. Welcome. Welcome. So nice to have you here.
Aviva Laura Nirenberg:
It's great to be here, Nikki.
Pete Wright:
This is such a treat.
Nikki Kinzer:
And we're going to talk about good stuff. We are talking about natural approaches to navigating ADHD. So this is something that I know we talk a lot about in coaching because medication is obviously something that... it can be a very important factor in navigating ADHD, but there are some other things that you can do to piece together this puzzle that we're looking to piece together when it comes to ADHD. So welcome, welcome, welcome. Why don't we start out. Aviva, tell us a little bit about what you think it means when we're talking about natural approaches to ADHD.
Aviva Laura Nirenberg:
Yeah, I think I consider it more like a lifestyle approach to be your best self with ADHD. Like we said before, medicine can really help and for most people they see some positive impact from medicine. But not everyone wants to take medicine or some people want to try other things first. Or they realize at some point that medicine isn't the whole picture. They are getting some advantages, some improvement from medicine, but they realize there's still things that are really hard for them. So I think that that lifestyle approach and these things that we're going to discuss today are these other pieces that could be part of your ADHD toolbox or even kind of a foundation for ADHD management, that it's not just a way to treat ADHD, but I consider it that it's kind of the basis, like the building blocks for good ADHD treatment.
Nikki Kinzer:
So let's talk about some of those things. What would you consider to be more natural approaches?
Aviva Laura Nirenberg:
Okay, so there are a few things, but I think the three most pivotal, and there other ones that are also important, are the diet piece, exercise and sleep, and all those kind of... they're like a blessing and a challenge for ADHD cause they all have their particular things that make it hard for ADHD. Like we know sleep can be really hard for ADHD and there's some issues associated with diet and exercise that make it harder to start, but they're all things that can have a tremendous impact, tremendous positive impacts on ADHD symptoms.
And some of the other pieces are mindfulness can have a really positive influence on ADHD symptoms. Even I read this is kind of cool, can change your brain, that the amygdala, the emotional center of the brain, which can be the cause of ADHD meltdowns, actually shrink. So people that regularly practice mindfulness and the prefrontal cortex, which is the source of all our executive functions actually grows. Which I thought that was a really neat thing because medication is just making those changes while you're taking the medication. It could work great creating that dopamine, creating that neuro... I can never say this word, but other neurotransmitters, norepinephrine.
Nikki Kinzer:
Good job.
Aviva Laura Nirenberg:
But it's not making those changes long-term. Even beyond the medicines out of your system, you're going to have that crash, which people don't like. But if you decide to practice mindfulness regularly or exercise regularly, but exercise also does make some long-term changes. You're not going to just feel those benefits right then. But there are benefits that are going to be lasting.
Pete Wright:
Let's start with... let's start breaking them down kind of one at a time. If we think about just... and knowing full well that they work in concert with one another. Let's start with sleep. We've talked about sleep in particular around transitions. People with ADHD have a hard time getting to sleep, they have a hard time waking up, they have a hard time staying asleep. Sleep is a real challenge. If you were to start with approaching sleep and the benefits of sleep to those with ADHD once you develop a practice that you can live with, what would that look like?
Aviva Laura Nirenberg:
So I think you first have to figure out where that person is with their sleep, where their struggle is. Is it in falling asleep, is it in actually getting into bed? Are they staying up till three in the morning cause they're doing whatever? Is it once they get into bed they have a hard time shutting down or they're worrying or whatever it is. Or are they waking up in the night? Are they waking up in the morning feeling well rests even when they get supposedly a good night's sleep?
Pete Wright:
Well I think you just said something that triggered for me that sleep isn't just sleep. Sleep is the row of dominoes that have to start falling much earlier because of time blindness when I'm awake. I might not get in bed until 3:00 AM not because I don't want to get in bed until 3:00 AM but because I don't even know it's 3:00 AM until I come out of a ADHD phase.
Aviva Laura Nirenberg:
Time mindless and hyper focus. You can get really stuck in an activity, it maybe something very enjoyable, but you get stuck in it and that's kind of one of the things with managing ADHD and sleep is not to get into one of those hyper-focused activities for you close to when bedtime. If bedtime's 11:00, 10:00 you don't want to pick up, I don't know, a video game or...
Pete Wright:
A video game, I was just going to say, game control.
Aviva Laura Nirenberg:
Besides the screens. Besides the screens affect melatonin and the blue light is not good for sleep. But aside from that.
Pete Wright:
But even we talk about the things that we should do to calm ourselves down, we have some tea and we pick up a book. So last night I totally did that and I got so hyper focused on the book, I didn't go to sleep until 1:30. The book was awesome and it was on paper, it wasn't even on a screen. I'm doing the right stuff and my brain still hates that idea.
Aviva Laura Nirenberg:
Yeah. Yeah.
Nikki Kinzer:
Well you chose the wrong book.
Pete Wright:
I can't do anything right. I need to choose what, woodworking for the Amish... for young Amish professional. Right.
Nikki Kinzer:
Yes. Well, because honestly, and I'm actually being very personal about this.
Aviva Laura Nirenberg:
Yeah, I would agree.
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah, because I know that when people... a lot of people will listen to podcasts before they go to sleep and if you're... or audio books even, but if you're listening to something that's really peaked your interest, then yeah, you're going to be awake and you're going to want to finish it. So you do kind of want to read or listen to something that's a little bit boring.
Aviva Laura Nirenberg:
Yeah. Yeah. That balance between interesting enough that you want to do it and boring enough that you won't continue to do it or has a set end.
Nikki Kinzer:
Can't continue. Yeah.
Aviva Laura Nirenberg:
Has a set ending. Maybe it's a short story, maybe it's like you said, listening to a podcast as a set ending.
Pete Wright:
I do like podcast apps that have timers. I listen in Overcast, which is kind of a niche podcast app, but it has a timer that will stop at the end of an episode. So you don't just press play and listen to every episode you've downloaded. You press play and you say, "I want you to stop either in a time or when this episode is over, stop playing it," so that if I do drift off that's good, I don't listen to everything, but at least it won't keep playing after I'm drowsy.
Nikki Kinzer:
Well, and I know with one of the things that I'll talk to clients about and I do myself, is having sort of a boundary of when you will not start a new show. So if you're watching TV and how those streaming services just play next and it's just so easy to go into the next one. But for myself, I don't start anything after 9:00 PM. So if it's 8:45, I might start a shorter show or an hour show because I know I want to be in bed by 10, but I just know I'm not going to start anything new at 9:00. So it's kind of putting... after 9:00. So it's putting a rule to... where you have to remind yourself of that rule. So you might need a reminder somewhere or a timer just to say, "Okay, you're getting ready to go to bed, don't start that," or whatever, because it's not going to come naturally necessarily. But I think setting those kind of boundaries around time can be really helpful.
Aviva Laura Nirenberg:
Yeah, I agree with you, Nikki, on that, that the timers can be especially helpful because it's easy to just listen to another episode or have that boundary in your mind, but when you get into the flow of things, it's harder to stop. But that shut off really... usually cause you have to make that extra effort to turn it back on or change the settings on a timer that's already there for you.
Pete Wright:
I'm sitting here digging through my Netflix settings to see if I can turn off that autoplay. Rumor is you can, that you could say, "Don't play the next thing." But man, they make it hard to find.
Nikki Kinzer:
Oh, of course they do.
Aviva Laura Nirenberg:
Yeah.
Pete Wright:
Yeah. Okay.
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah, of course they do.
Pete Wright:
So sleep. I appreciate all of this. It makes me sad that I now have to start being conscientious about the kind of book I read. I feel like I just did a good thing by picking up a book and drinking tea and I'm already doing it wrong, but I can-
Nikki Kinzer:
You're not doing it wrong.
Pete Wright:
I can do this. I can do this. Make better choices with my reading. I can absolutely do that. More pamphlets, more boring pamphlets to put me to sleep.
Nikki Kinzer:
That's right. When you're going to bed. Now you can have that great novel or whatever it is that you're reading later, at a different time.
Pete Wright:
Well, this I think also ties into if we back into out of sleep, ties into exercise. Let's talk about the benefits of exercise too. The ADHD body.
Aviva Laura Nirenberg:
Yeah, yeah. We'll just backtrack just a bit is how exercise influences sleep. When you have a regular exercise regimen, it helps you to sleep, fall asleep easier and stay asleep better. So these kind of things we're talking about today kind of have ripple effects with each other. And not to say we want to bite off more than we can chew in ADHD fashion and try tackling everything at once, but they really do have ripple effects. When you start to exercise, you're going to sleep better, when you start to exercise, you're usually going to eat better, drink more water, maybe have more protein. So there is that kind of domino effect in a positive way between these lifestyle ADHD habits we're talking about.
But yeah, so for ADHD and exercise, it's pretty amazing. We're talking about a little earlier with mindfulness, how mindfulness can be even better than medicine in some ways cause it changes your brain. With ADHD and exercise, we're producing those same neurotransmitters, that dopamine and the norepinephrine that you produce when you take Ritalin or Adderall or any of the similar medications, but also you're producing the serotonin and those other happy chemicals that help your mood and positivity, which is going to help your productivity and help you to... we know how much our mood affects our focus and helps us to get things done. So all those executive functions are to be positively affected as well as our mood and our overall happiness.
Pete Wright:
Is there a form of exercise or a classification of exercise that is better for ADHD than another? Should I be like free climbing or swimming, or?
Aviva Laura Nirenberg:
So I would say at first to say anything you enjoy that you're going to want to do, but then if you really, really want to know, there are things like yoga and martial arts because they require a certain type of focus and concentration that I guess they're building more of that ADHD muscle than any other cardio sport. But really anything to get out there and move, but it could be gardening or mowing the lawn, but something that you're going to do and you're going to enjoy is probably the biggest factor.
Nikki Kinzer:
I was talking to a client... Yeah, it was actually earlier today and she was talking about there was a moment last week where she was just feeling really, really stuck, wasn't motivated to really do much, and she went outside and took a walk and she said a couple things happened. One is that she felt better after she took the walk and felt more motivated to get some things done. But she also realized that she probably took the walk a little bit too late because by the time she came back it was done with work and now "I have to be at home mode." And so she still felt a little sad, frustrated that it didn't happen earlier. So I'm curious... and then what she's going to work on is, "Can I get that walk in a little bit earlier to see if I can't kick off that?" So she's combining exercise, which is obviously really good as we just mentioned, but she's also talking about going outside. So I'm curious what your thoughts are around just being outside, what does that do for the ADHD brain?
Aviva Laura Nirenberg:
Yeah. Yeah. So we were talking about executive functional earlier. So we think about throughout the day we're using our executive function and we have this executive function battery and as we are making choices, as we are forced to focus or manage our time, that battery gets depleted. And if we continue with that battery metaphor, being outside replenishes that battery, it says something to our nervous system and we don't quite understand how, but it replenishes that battery. You said she felt more motivated when she came back in. It was like refilling her battery.
So it is pretty cool. And I've also learned, which that even just looking at a view of nature, and it can even be pictures on your wall, does also have an effect, not as great an effect as actually being outside and being in nature, but it still has an effect. So it's just something to keep in mind that even when you're sitting in your office, you could be looking at a nice picture of the beach or looking outside at the grass and trees. And even if you live in the city, you can have a gorgeous picture on your wall that you can look at nature and get replenished in some way.
Nikki Kinzer:
That's interesting. I never thought about that.
Pete Wright:
Well, and just getting that dose of fresh green oxygen in your brain, I find that incredibly rejuvenating. Just being outside.
Nikki Kinzer:
Well and Pete, you've done this before because I remember you and I working together and going to your house and we were working on a project and you purposely said, "Let's go outside, take a couple breaths-
Pete Wright:
60 seconds.
Nikki Kinzer:
... And then we'll come back in." Yeah, yeah. And it really does make a huge difference to have that little break.
Pete Wright:
Well, yeah and-
Nikki Kinzer:
And it could probably help with transition, too, I would assume.
Pete Wright:
Totally. Totally. Totally. We have a little... we have a cul-de-sac outside and so we could just do a quick lap of our cul-de-sac and it takes about a minute, minute and a half and you come back in and you're a new person. Having a prescribed this is... and you talk about transitions, having a prescribed transitional element that says, "I'm going to walk out this door and walk into the door to something else when I'm ready to change." That can be very helpful.
Nikki Kinzer:
Literally. You're closing the door, you're walking and then you're opening up a new one. I like that.
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Nikki Kinzer:
I'm going to remember that. That's great. That's great.
Pete Wright:
I put a bunch of framed doors throughout the house, just like stage doors and sometimes I just walk through them and I make an entrance.
Nikki Kinzer:
And no one's there.
Pete Wright:
No one's there. No. No one's there. No one cares.
Nikki Kinzer:
But you still feel really important.
Pete Wright:
But I like to make an entrance everywhere I go.
Aviva Laura Nirenberg:
I would also add what you said about the 60 minute break is it doesn't have to be a half an hour walk or 45 minute cardio session. Even those little bursts of exercise, 10 jumping jacks between clients or right before a meeting or getting outside and walking around the block or going up and down the steps in an office are going to have a positive impact. And that little impact adds up throughout the day. Nikki knows, I shared with her about a client who had three full-time jobs. I'm not joking. He had like... literally, he was working 24 hour shifts on two jobs, 2 24 shifts, and the third job, he was working more 9:00 to 5:00 and he was trying to fit in exercise and we spent many sessions trying to figure out what he could let go of because there literally wasn't a minute in the day. We figured out he wasn't willing to let go of any of the jobs for various reasons.
One he was nearing retirement, he was expecting a pension and the other one he was kind of holding on to, so he was secure in the third job. But anyway, what we figured out is during those transition periods he had a pull up challenge. So that's another thing that helps making it into a challenge, kind of excites the ADHD brain. A pull up challenge at the fire department between calls they'd get back and do, I don't know, however many pull ups they could fit in, 20 pull ups or something like that. And these did over time. So he was able to... and also he did that between clients, he had a virtual job, between patients and he did some other kind of, I don't know if it was pushups, pull ups, whatever, some other kind of exercise that he did to transition. But also he was starting to meet his exercise goals of getting stronger. Wasn't a 30 minute break ever, but little by little he was getting stronger and healthier. So I think people are held back by, "I don't have half an hour, I don't have 40 minutes, or I can't do cardio." But those little bursts almost anyone could do.
Nikki Kinzer:
That's a really good point. That's a really good point because you have to think with ADHD, it's very easy to go all or nothing, "I need to do the whole class or I don't do it." And so we're saying, "No, it's okay to do these little bursts of exercise." Which feels, with myself who does not exercise, that feels a lot easier to even get started. If I only have to do 10 pushups, I'm okay with that.
Pete Wright:
Well it goes back to building those tiny habits, right? Associating a couple of pushups with something that you are absolutely doing already might just be the answer to doing any pushups at all.
Nikki Kinzer:
Right. Right. Well and habits, Pete, you bring up a really good point because a lot of this stuff is around... well you mentioned it, Aviva, actually, these are lifestyle things that we're looking at. This isn't necessarily something that you just, there's no end... or beginning or end of sleep or exercise. And we didn't even talk about nutrition yet. So I'm curious yeah, how do these become... When you're coaching clients, how do you build in the habit piece of having this be a lifestyle change?
Aviva Laura Nirenberg:
I think first it's just the awareness that habits take time because people can start something persistent for a week, maybe two, maybe three, and then they go on vacation or they get sick and the diet or the exercise or the sleep are really off and then they beat themselves up and they stop because, "I failed. So why continue?" But to realize that it takes time and that we do fall off, everyone falls, even long-term habits that people have had for years, there are times when you're going to fall off, but to just get back right on it again. And I think another thing that's really helpful for ADHD is seeing your progress, seeing your consistency in some way. And there are a lot of apps that help with that, whether it's exercise or diet or sleep, even mindfulness which we probably get to a little bit later.
There are apps that can help you to see visually your progress and that can be very powerful. It could be also someone has... one of the important things in coaching is to ask why is this important to you? What's your why here? Why do you want to lose weight or why do you want to exercise? And just being really in touch with what's important about that particular thing for you and having that reminder. Maybe it's a picture on the wall of, I don't know, the way you looked when you were 20 pounds thinner or maybe it's a quote or some kind of souvenir you have from a vacation that reminds you of what your goal is. But having that visual piece that keeps you always thinking about what your why is so when you fall off track or you feel like discouraged, you keep that motivation up.
Pete Wright:
Always David Hasselhoff, just so you know the picture, for me, it's always going to be David Hasselhoff.
Nikki Kinzer:
You just want to be like David?
Pete Wright:
Got to be like David. Let's talk then about nutrition. And speaking of making good choices. I saved this one hopefully because we'll run out of time right in the middle of it because it's such a hard thing for yours truly to face. Nutrition and the ADHD brain.
Aviva Laura Nirenberg:
I think ADHD coaching is a little bit different than regular coaching in there is always that education piece. If people don't understand how certain nutritional changes can make a big difference in their ADHD, there's that education piece. What do they know about ADHD and nutrition? I mean there's always the good nutrition in general, healthy nutrition guidelines are always be helpful in general, like eating whole grains and fruits and all that stuff. But I think knowing particularly where ADHD fits into good nutrition, like the emphasis on protein, how that's important for building neurotransmitters, why it's particularly important to have to be careful about your sugar intake or your white flour, like refined flour intake and how that causes the spikes for that little high, but with the big drop off and how protein affects that also, because protein kind of evens it out a little bit.
This is an education piece and just to find out where they are at with these things. I think there's so many challenges with ADHD and eating. Medicine can be one of them. Not having an appetite can be a problem. Having... getting kind of addicted to that white flour or the sugar because of the high it gives you, that burst, but with that drop off can be also an issue. You really needs to be curious and ask them where they are with these things and where they would like to be. Or if there's been a time in their past they remember eating more healthy and how that felt for them. What would you like things to be like? Are you looking for more energy? Are you looking to lose weight? What are their goals there as far as good nutrition? Is it focused? Is it primarily ADHD related or is it related to bigger lifestyle goals?
Pete Wright:
Again, the tiny habit piece is really important, especially for me when I think about how hard it is for me to eat regular meals when I'm not in a rhythm with my family. Because sometimes my wife travels and my kids are largely out and about doing their own thing and out in the world and I might be here working out of my home studio alone and the kitchen is way too close and allows me access to just constant snacking if I'm not careful. So there's the both when I am eating, what kind of alerts or alarms or triggers do I have to remind me to eat something and when I do eat something, is the right kind of food available to me at arm's reach? The easiest stuff is on a shelf, that I don't have to prepare. But what can I do when I'm in the flow to actually prepare some things for me to eat later for future Pete to not make bad decisions. And that's a thing that is constant work for me, but it actually... I mean it does help. It helps.
Aviva Laura Nirenberg:
To have that list of go-to snacks that for you are healthy, that you enjoy. It could be something that's ready made like a good protein bar or a ready made protein shake. But if there are other things, fruit and nuts, to have those things accessible and available. I had a client that kept his work snacks right literally on his desk because otherwise he wouldn't see them. He'd forget about them. So it could be you have them really... we see what we do and we want to have those things we want to do in front of us.
Nikki Kinzer:
It's interesting because we just had a Coaching with Nikki yesterday, last night, which is one of the benefits of the platinum Discord group, and we were talking about meal planning and we were talking about how to do it and what helps. And what's so interesting is there were a couple of people that were saying that they will make like 22 cups of rice and then they batch it up, they use the freezer or the... Yeah, the freezer thing, whatever and then freeze it. And then somebody else was talking about how they do it with sweet potatoes, they'll freeze their sweet potatoes. And it's such an easy thing because you do it all at once and it's easy to make rice, it's easy to make sweet potatoes, especially if you've got one of those pot things that make everything faster.
Aviva Laura Nirenberg:
The Instant pot.
Pete Wright:
Instant pot.
Nikki Kinzer:
Yes, thank you. Instant pot. But it was really interesting to hear him say that you can take a bag of rice that's frozen and put it in the microwave and put it in for a minute and have a nice side with whatever else you want, whether it's vegetables or you can make it easy. And so I think that's probably part of looking into what you're eating. I know if I have it in my house, I'm going to eat it. So I have to prevent buying stuff that I know is not good for me, too. But you also have to have that convenience piece as well.
Aviva Laura Nirenberg:
Right. Right.
Pete Wright:
I want to throw in just one more, you're talking about the instant pot, which is enormously helpful in this regard. The other is a dehydrator. If you can find a dehydrator kind of cheap, you can really help yourself with the kinds of snacks that you might otherwise eat packaged. When you're in the flow, make a whole bunch of stuff. We make cashew bark, which is kind of amazing. It feels like something you might find in Lord of the Rings, like the elves would eat it.
You take a big bag of unsalted cashews and some dates and a little vanilla and you put it all in a blender and make a paste and then you spread it out on a dehydrator sheet and dry it for a day or so. And when it comes out it's like it is bark, it's like a chip. But it is the most wonderful snack. It's sweet, it's protein because all kinds of nuts and dates and it's not bad for you and it gives you that little, that continuity boost throughout the day that I really need. And so we keep that on hand. We make that by the truckload and keep it on hand for the snacking when I otherwise might grab a chip.
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah, totally.
Aviva Laura Nirenberg:
That sounds like an awesome snack. I want to get back to what you were just saying earlier, Nikki, about batch cooking. And I think that really takes advantage of the ADHD hyper focus, like that strength because people do... what I've seen anyway, people do a lot better hyper focusing on like a long cooking marathon on a Sunday when they have time off and cooking a lot of stuff and freezing it rather than each night starting over and figuring out what they need to do. I mean, even if you have a chart Monday's this, Tuesdays, that a lot of people find it easier to just do a cooking marathon, have it in the freezer then they have what to take out during the week.
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah, I know meal planning is not easy. It can be really frustrating, but I do believe you can make it ADHD friendly and to keep practicing and trying different things because it does help. It really does help to stay on course of how you want to eat. Because when we don't have, I know for our family, if we don't have the meal planned and we don't have the stuff in our kitchen, we go out, and we probably do that a lot more often than what we need to be. So there is something for sure about that, of helping that nutritional piece of it. So I am curious, because we both work with ADHDers, we understand that when people come to us to help them, especially with these kinds of things like sleep, exercise, nutrition, mindfulness, we want all of it to be happening at once. I want all the changes and I want them all right now. So how do you guide people to getting started with without the expectation that it can all change right now?
Aviva Laura Nirenberg:
Just knowing that education piece that in the past, what has happened when you tried to, I don't know, go to the gym every day for an hour? How did that go for you? For most people, it doesn't really last very long. And just understanding that if they do things little by little, then they're more likely to build the habits that they want over time. You have to really just ask them about their own experiences because I think most people have examples that they can point to where they build habits that stuck whatever they were and their times when they failed to build habits. And most likely it's because they took on too much. So if they can see that from their own experience, they're more likely to understand and to go at a pace that works.
Nikki Kinzer:
And it goes back to what Pete was saying too, I think, tiny habits, start small. You could do a little bit in each area, but start small and see if that helps, it makes a difference. You mentioned mindfulness, that's kind of been weaved into the conversation a little bit. How do you speak to your clients about mindfulness? What do you think it is and how is it different from meditation? I think it's really important that we just make the two distinctions.
Aviva Laura Nirenberg:
So I think that meditation's more of a formal practice and there's different types of meditation. I consider mindfulness any activity or any time you're just in touch with what's going on right now in the present moment, what you're seeing, feeling, hearing, smelling, tasting, what's going through your head without judgment. Just being in the present moment. And I think meditation, people have these images like... What goes through your mind when you hear the word meditation? I'll ask people that question. I mean, I can ask you, if you heard the word meditation, what do you associate with?
Nikki Kinzer:
A person in a nice beautiful garden in the sitting down pose with the hands up and birds chirping. It's very peaceful.
Aviva Laura Nirenberg:
Yeah. So it's a beautiful image, but at the same time, I think most people with ADHD don't see themselves that way. There are ADHD meditators that do meditate in that formal way, but I think it's really the exception rather than the rule. So I think I try to portray mindfulness as something that really fits in anyone's lifestyle. You can be mindful while you're taking a walk, talking about taking two things together, being outside... three things, actually being outside, getting some exercise and being mindful. Those birds chirping, the sun on your back, what your feet feel like in your shoes, just feeling what you're feeling right now. It could be while you're taking a shower that you're just in the present moment. It could be you're sitting on a chair. It doesn't have to be that formal practice of breathing.
And it's okay for other thoughts to go through your mind and to get distracted, just to try to bring yourself back to where you are in the present moment. And it can be honestly doing any activity you're normally doing. And it can be for 30 seconds at a time. It could be for a minute at a time. It doesn't have to be 30 minutes, hour, two hours sitting down in that field or in that garden, Nikki.
Pete Wright:
I think the whole idea of feeling like your choices are limited... We've had some folks in the chat room who were already talking about, "When I feel like I don't have the right food in place, I just don't eat." Or "I live in a place that just doesn't give me access to nature. How am I supposed to make those kinds of choices? How do I create a natural environment?" When I feel like and I have a worldview that I am limited in my options, how do I open myself up to those things around sleep, exercise, nutrition and natural mindful living? Thoughts?
Aviva Laura Nirenberg:
Yeah, I think that's a really broad question, but I can give you an example. I had someone I was working with who lived in the city. She was an actress and an artist and she needed to live in the city. And we were coaching for a while and one time I was speaking to her and she sounded like a different person. She just seemed so relaxed and at peace. And I said to her, "What's different today? What's going on? You sound so different." And she said to me that she was at her grandmother's... had a house up in New Hampshire, somewhere upstate and it was in the woods and she had taken some walks and I was like, "Wow, it sounds like transformative for you." And she's like, "Yeah, it really is."
And we talked about it for a while and then when I asked her, "How do you think you can get that bit of nature while you're living in New York City?" We tried to brainstorm because she needed to be in the city. That's where her work was. It wasn't really an option to move to New Hampshire or Maine. But what we figured out was she loves to ride a bike. She could ride in Central Park. There are parks so she can sit and read a book in the park. There is that little bit of a getaway in the city and she could still be proactive in planning regular trips out to nature. Maybe she goes on a camping trip on a long weekend, maybe she goes up to her grandmother regularly. So to see what's possible within your circumstances.
Nikki Kinzer:
Look at what's possible and to really explore maybe outside of what you would normally explore. Because it doesn't have to be a traditional exercise program like what we've talked about, you don't have to live out in the country to enjoy nature. So I think it is... and sleep, that's something that is definitely something you keep practicing yourself and figuring out what you need. But yeah, I would definitely recommend, first of all, I would ask what, what's making you feel like it's limited? I would be curious to know where they're feeling limited, especially when it comes to nutrition, because that might be something that you can just do a little bit more research on and figure out a little bit more on how to make it work for you.
But that's definitely something I'd be curious about is where that thought, those thoughts are coming from and then looking at those opportunities. And what are you willing to try? What are you willing to practice? And see if it works. I like your idea of even, this never dawned on me, but having the pictures of nature. The people that don't see you right now, our discord community can, you have this beautiful picture behind you of mountains and it looks like a river probably. And I mean it's beautiful. I have a picture of the beach in my office and so it's like I never really thought, "I could just look at that picture and I bet you it would calm me down."
Aviva Laura Nirenberg:
Yeah, yeah. It was really interesting when I read that because I have a son who, he's a big nature photographer, we lived in Colorado a few years and he got into nature photography. So I have a lot, this is one of his, but I have a lot of pictures in my environment, not just necessarily in my office, but in my house. And I knew that it made me happy, but I was thinking it was because, "Well, my son took these pictures and he's really talented." But I realized that it's more than that. It's more than that. There really is something going on with our nervous system when we look at nature.
Pete Wright:
And I need a plant. You know what I mean? I need a plant.
Aviva Laura Nirenberg:
Like a living thing.
Pete Wright:
I'm looking at my stuff, everything's so... I got so much gear and tech in my space and old archives of historical gadgets on my walls. I need a plant. I have no living things besides me in my office right now.
Nikki Kinzer:
And your dog, he comes and visits sometimes.
Pete Wright:
He's not even here right now. I've been forsaken by my own podcast pet.
Aviva Laura Nirenberg:
So that's actually another really cool way you can bring nature inside, even in an urban environment, is plants. Some people have a little window box with flowers or even I've seen, I was at someone's house recently that they had growing on their counter herbs. It was some kind of contraption that you can grow like herbs. It was so cool.
Pete Wright:
We have one of those and I'll post a link to it. It's fantastic. It is... It has a little light and a timer and you put water in it and all the goodies and you put little seed pods in it and then it grows. Whatever you want, thyme. I mean, we have one that's lettuce, it'll grow little baby leaf lettuce and you cut it up and eat it. But it's always growing in the corner. That's what I need to move in here.
Aviva Laura Nirenberg:
I was going to say.
Pete Wright:
Is our herb garden. I think my wife would kill me. She likes it. Anyhow, that is really, really helpful and just a great reminder that I need more life and breath.
Nikki Kinzer:
Well, it's a good reminder too of, remember when we did our joy presentation at the ADHD conference that we want to surround ourselves with things that make us happy. We want to have our surroundings be you, not necessarily nature, but that's definitely something you want to add. But anything, it could be pictures of family that make you happy or flowers or whatever, but being able to surround yourself in that space that gives you that little piece of joy that's so important to have every day.
Pete Wright:
Truly.
Nikki Kinzer:
For sure.
Pete Wright:
Truly truly.
Nikki Kinzer:
Well, thank you Aviva, so much for being here. I know we're just touching the surface here. There's so many things, as when we were talking about what to talk about, each of these things could be their own podcasts, their own series of podcasts. But I think the biggest takeaway is just understanding too that there's pieces to this puzzle and there's a lot of different factors. And I will often tell clients, if you didn't get a good night's sleep, if you ate a donut for breakfast and you went straight to your office and sat down, you're not going to have a great ADHD day. It's going to be loud because it's... and even with the medicine, it might get a little bit better, but it's still going to be loud because it all works together.
Aviva Laura Nirenberg:
Yeah, Yeah. Adding just a little onto what you just said is that it's always good to check in when you're having not just a bad ADHD day, but a bad ADHD week. How are you doing with sleep, diet, exercise? And a lot of times you find, "Oh, I didn't sleep last night, that the baby was up or I ate really poorly." And that's really contributing factors that made that day or that week difficult.
Nikki Kinzer:
That's such a good point.
Pete Wright:
And one other thing that sticks out to me in this whole conversation, not once have we had any conversation about questionable supplements or things that you buy or things that... crazy things that like... We're not talking about any of that. Everything we're talking about when we talk about natural approaches to ADHD living is simply doing things with your body that will help you live more comfortably with your ADHD in the world. I think that is as basic and as pure as I think we could possibly be.
Nikki Kinzer:
Absolutely. Thank you and thank you so much for being here.
Aviva Laura Nirenberg:
It was a pleasure. Thank you.
Pete Wright:
Thank you. And welcome to the Take Control ADHD team. We're so glad to have you.
Nikki Kinzer:
That's right.
Pete Wright:
And great to be able to introduce you to the audience on the podcast, Aviva. If anybody wants to learn a little bit more about Aviva, you can find more information about her and the kinds of coaching she does over at Take Control ADHD. We encourage you to do just that. I'll put a direct link to her profile page in the show notes. Thank you everybody for downloading and listening to this show. We appreciate your time and your attention. And don't forget if you have something to contribute to the conversation, we're heading over to the Show Talk channel in our Discord server and you can join us right there by becoming a supporting member at the deluxe level for better. On behalf of Aviva Nirenberg and Nikki Kinzer, I'm Pete Wright, and we'll see you right here next week on Taking Control, the ADHD podcast.
