Wrangling the ADHD Perfectionist with Dr. Sharon Saline
Special thanks to TextExpander for sponsoring this week's show!
We've talked about parenting with her. We've talked about therapy and ADHD. But my favorite episode with Dr. Sharon Saline was all about sinking thinking and self-compassion with ADHD. So, you can imagine that embarking on this series on that very subject would bring her back to the show.
Sharon is the author of the award-winning book, What Your ADHD Child Wishes You Knew: Working Together to Empower Kids for Success in School and Life and The ADHD solution card deck. She specializes in working with neurodiverse children, teens, young adults, and families and aims to help outside-the-box thinkers improve executive functioning and social-emotional skills while also building practical communication tools and self-esteem.
Sharon says that she, herself, is a perfectionist in recovery, and she offers key insights into perfectionism and its impact on ADHD. How does perfectionism drive self-compassion down? How can you use "just one thing" to turn what seems to be impossible into a daily practice? How do you avoid compare-and-despair? All that and more this week with our great friend Sharon Saline!
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Pete Wright:
Hello everybody, and welcome to Taking Control, The ADHD Podcast, on TruStory FM. I'm Pete Wright and I'm here with Nikki Kinzer.
Nikki Kinzer:
Hello, everyone. Hello, Pete Wright.
Pete Wright:
Nikki, we've already done the conversation with our guest today. We're recording this out of order, and I have to tell you, I think I've come up with like five shirt ideas for the merch store.
Nikki Kinzer:
Yes.
Pete Wright:
I'm pretty excited about that. I'm going to have so many new coffee mugs. You don't even know. It's going to be, my cup runneth over with ideas for cups.
Nikki Kinzer:
Yes.
Pete Wright:
I can't wait.
Nikki Kinzer:
Yes.
Pete Wright:
Our guest today is the wonderful Dr. Sharon Saline. I think Sharon's almost to the Hall of Fame, which is fantastic, with James Ochoa, who's at five. I think Sharon hits four with this episode, so almost to the Hall of Fame. Very excited.
We are continuing our conversation about self-compassion. And today, my goodness, we're talking about perfectionism. So much to work on, Nikki. So much. Oh my goodness.
Nikki Kinzer:
It's a strong one.
Pete Wright:
Woo. Before we get into it, head over to takecontroladhd.com and get to know us a little bit better. You can listen to the show right there on the website, or subscribe to the mailing list, and we will send you an email each time a new episode is released. You can connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, or Pinterest, at Take Control ADHD.
But to really connect with us, join the ADHD Discord community. Super easy to jump into the general chat channel. Just visit takecontroladhd.com/discord, and you'll be whisked over to the general invitation page and log in. And if you're looking for a little more, particularly if this show has ever touched you or helped you understand your relationship with ADHD in a new way, we invite you to support the show directly through Patreon.
Patreon is listener-supported podcasting. With a few dollars a month, you can help guarantee that we continue to grow this show, add new features, and invest more heavily in our community. Again, patreon.com/theadhdpodcast to learn more. And you know if you join, at the deluxe level or better, you can jump into the live chat. You could be chatting right along with Sharon and me and Nikki. And you could ask questions. We have a member bonus extended episodes. It's all very, very exciting.
Oh, it's my favorite time. Favorite, favorite time of the podcast. This week's episode is brought to you by TextExpander, one of the best invisible tools in my tech tool chest. Here's how it works.
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And now, Nikki, do we have news?
Nikki Kinzer:
Yes, we do. So, Tax Study Halls are going to be offered every Saturday and Sunday for Patreons at the deluxe tier and higher, and they are going to be offered through tax day of April 18th. In fact, we're going to have a couple more extra times available as it gets closer to April 18th.
So if this is something that you would like to do with other people, which taxes are not fun to do by yourself, and they're really not fun to do with other people either, but they're a little bit more fun to do with other people.
Pete Wright:
A little bit.
Nikki Kinzer:
A little bit. So, this gives you an opportunity to do that.
Also, I want you to keep an eye on email and social media, because GPS enrollment will be opening to the public next week, Tuesday, April 4th. And those people who have been patiently waiting on our wait list will be able to sign up even sooner.
So, this is a great opportunity that you won't want to miss. Enrollment only opens three times a year, so the next enrollment won't open until the fall. So don't wait to take control of your planning. And you can learn more about GPS and the monthly membership program on our website at takecontroladhd.com/gps.
Pete Wright:
We've talked about parenting with her. We've talked about therapy and ADHD with her. But my favorite episode with Dr. Sharon Saline was all about stinking thinking and self-compassion with ADHD.
So you can imagine that embarking on this series, on that very subject, would bring her back to the show. Sharon is the author of the award-winning book, What Your Child Wishes You Knew, Working Together to Empower Kids for Success in Schools and Life, and The ADHD Solution Card Deck.
She specializes in working with neuro-diverse children, teens, young adults and families. And aims to help outside-the-box thinkers improve executive functioning, and social, emotional skills, while also building practical communication tools and self-esteem.
Sharon, welcome back to The ADHD Podcast.
Sharon Saline:
Thank you so much. It's always a great pleasure and, I have to say, a lot of fun to talk with you two. It's one of the highlights of this week, for sure.
Pete Wright:
Oh, that's so sweet. The last time you were here, you were talking about stinking thinking.
Sharon Saline:
Stinking thinking.
Pete Wright:
Stinking thinking. I just like saying it, stinking thinking. But it really feels like this, in the middle of our self-compassion series, is kind of a sequel to that last conversation. Talking specifically about self-compassion and perfectionism, and the role that these perfectionist behaviors, traits, play into our ability to like ourselves.
Sharon Saline:
Mm-hmm. Well, I think it's important to start with what is perfectionism, right? So perfectionism is known as a combination of overly high personal standards and intensely critical self-evaluation, that may or may not be applied to others, and they're definitely applying them to yourself. And perfectionist people believe that mistakes represent personal flaws, and that they may never be good enough, and that acceptance as a person means having no faults.
And there are two types of perfectionism. Productive, or what's sometimes called adaptive perfectionism, which supports motivation and productivity and persistence. It helps us get started and do things, because we want them to be a particular way.
And then there's toxic, maladaptive perfectionism, which blocks us from actually sometimes finishing that thing that we were so excited about starting, because it's not quite right. Or it perpetuates negative self-esteem, rigidity and defensiveness. And so, this kind of toxic perfectionism really feeds that shame spiral, and it's where we absolutely have to exert some compassion toward ourselves.
Pete Wright:
Where's the corollary between perfectionism and ADHD traits? I'm looking right at you, hyper-focused. It feels like, is it possible that some of these traits of not being able to let go-
Sharon Saline:
Yes.
Pete Wright:
... are linked to toxic perfectionism?
Sharon Saline:
Well, yes and no. So the thing is, we have to sort of zoom out a little bit more when you ask that question, Pete, because what we want to look at is about perfectionism and anxiety. So, we know that 50% of adults with ADHD have anxiety, like a bonafide disorder, that their therapist writes down as a diagnosis.
I think it's great to have a diagnosis. I don't particularly like the word disorder. Who wants to have a disorder? Nobody. But it is a condition. And I think if we think of it as a condition, then that will help those of us who are perfectionists. And I am a recovering perfectionist, which means I will be recovering my entire life, I think. It helps us gain some perspective and just accept that this is part of who I am. There are great things about it and there are also challenging things about it.
So, perfectionism is linked to a number of anxiety reactions that we also see in people with ADHD. So concern over mistakes, these excessively high personal standards. Perhaps expectations of others, whether they're parents or bosses or our kids. Criticism from others, sensitivity to that. Doubts about our actions, sort of a series of recriminations that we might say to ourselves after doing something. There are physiological responses to put to perfectionism that connect with anxiety and with ADHD.
And we know that perfectionism is a risk factor, particularly in high stress situations, for vulnerability to different mental health conditions. And that it can lead to a kind of hopelessness or panic. And then there are, of course, organizational challenges related to perfectionism. I would like it to be this particular way. And when it's not, I may just throw in the towel and then the piles will start.
So that's the territory that I wanted to lay out for the listeners, so, we're all kind of on the same page about how these are related. And the way that this connects with ADHD, all or nothing thinking, right?
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Nikki Kinzer:
For sure.
Sharon Saline:
Fear of disappointing yourself or others.
Nikki Kinzer:
Mm-hmm.
Sharon Saline:
Sensitivity to criticism, a desire to control outcomes to avoid rejection or judgment, or that feeling like you're a failure.
Pete Wright:
Mm-hmm.
Sharon Saline:
Maybe rejecting praise, and acknowledging success as luck rather than as a result of the hard work or your intelligence, or the way that you really sustained your attention and pushed through something to reach a goal. And then, setting these really kinds of impossible standards of performance.
So, for a lot of people with ADHD, they want to perform at a particular level that is not actually congruent with what their capacity is or their ability is. And that's true for perfectionists also. We set standards for ourselves that are inhuman. Nobody could do this.
And this is something that I work on myself. I have to say to myself, "No actually is an okay response, and you can only do so much in a particular given amount of time."
Pete Wright:
Estimation of perfection is objective, right? It's like, I put that on myself, of what perfect is. And that's sort of the hidden terrible joke, that I could put all of my attention to creating something that in my esteem is perfect, and the rest of the world says it's not.
And that, to me, is the cycle of RSD that comes back in. Where I'm constantly grounded down by the fact that my sense of taste is not an alignment with what people are expecting. Even though I can't do anything, but what I have already set as my perfect standard. Did I say objective? I meant subjective.
Sharon Saline:
It's completely subjective.
Pete Wright:
Completely subjective. Yeah.
Sharon Saline:
Because this is your perception about what perfect is.
Nikki Kinzer:
Right.
Sharon Saline:
And the thing is, there is no perfect.
Pete Wright:
Right.
Nikki Kinzer:
Mm-hmm.
Sharon Saline:
There is no perfect. I mean, is a snowflake perfect? I don't know, you know?
Pete Wright:
One of them is.
Sharon Saline:
One of them.
Pete Wright:
We just haven't found it yet.
Sharon Saline:
There's one tulip that's absolutely perfect.
Pete Wright:
Yes.
Sharon Saline:
Right?
Pete Wright:
Right.
Nikki Kinzer:
Right.
Pete Wright:
At Denmark.
Sharon Saline:
Somewhere in the Netherlands it's growing right now.
Pete Wright:
Yeah. Right.
Sharon Saline:
But what happens is, by trying to live up to these standards of profession, perfection. I said profession. That's really interesting.
Pete Wright:
You're right.
Sharon Saline:
Professionalism or performance or perfection. All of these Ps, we're putting a huge amount of stress on our system. And so, what happens for our brains is that, when we're under stress, the amygdala, that fight, flight or freeze organ in the limbic system, the emotional control center of our brain, is activated. So it activates, and the amygdala says to our hormones, "We need more adrenaline. We need cortisol."
And so then, we're running on stress. We're doing things on stress. This is why a lot of people with ADHD don't get things done until the 11th hour, because they need that cortisol to substitute for the lower amounts of dopamine, or norepinephrine, that are naturally occurring in ADHD brains.
Nikki Kinzer:
Well.
Pete Wright:
That's interesting.
Nikki Kinzer:
It's interesting because when you wait it until the 11th hour, you might be also waiting for the perfect environment, the perfect circumstances. So, it's not even just your work. It's like, okay, that desk has to be completely clean before I can start writing. And again, going back to kind of that all or nothing thinking.
Sharon Saline:
Mm-hmm.
Nikki Kinzer:
But one thing I want to say that I think is really important for our listeners to understand and hear again, are the two different kinds of perfectionism.
Sharon Saline:
Hm.
Nikki Kinzer:
When you're talking about the productive kind versus the toxic. Because a lot of times, I hear clients say, "I'm a perfectionist." And they wear it as a badge of honor almost.
Sharon Saline:
Mm-hmm.
Nikki Kinzer:
But it's not the productive kind. Because as you go in and talk to them more deeper about what they mean by that, then you hear everything that you just said, about toxic perfectionism. So, I just think it's important for people to see that there are two different kinds.
Sharon Saline:
And it's hard, I think, Nikki, for me, I know that it's hard for me to sort of wrestle with my perfectionism. Because there's perfectionism, and then what?
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Nikki Kinzer:
Right. Does that mean you don't care?
Sharon Saline:
There's perfectionism, and yeah, I don't care at all. No, that's not really how it works for me.
Nikki Kinzer:
Right.
Sharon Saline:
And there's perfectionism and there's good enough.
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah.
Sharon Saline:
But then we get into the shades of good enough questions.
Nikki Kinzer:
Right.
Sharon Saline:
Right? And for perfectionists, that's really tricky territory, as it is for people with ADHD. It's like, okay, well I think this is good enough, but other people don't. So therefore, it's not good enough. So then how do I measure what is good enough?
Nikki Kinzer:
Right.
Sharon Saline:
And it's like this vicious cycle. Where it's like perfectionist, good enough. Perfectionist, good enough failure.
Pete Wright:
Mm-hmm.
Sharon Saline:
And you just can't kind of find your way out of it.
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah.
Sharon Saline:
And what we have to do, and I think it's so great that this is a series on ADHD and self-compassion, is we actually have to be with ourselves and make that decision. So for example, generally, failure is an exaggerated response to any type of performance that you're called on to do as an adult, right? Very few adults are going to fail at what they're doing.
What they might end up doing is having an experience be incomplete or a task is incomplete, or it's delayed. Or have most of the boxes checked, but not all of them. So, it qualifies as good enough. So, when I've worked with adults with ADHD, I circle back to this question over and over again.
What does good enough mean to you?
Nikki Kinzer:
Mm-hmm.
Sharon Saline:
And what does good enough mean to the person that you're in some kind of relationship with? Whether it's a partner, a friend, a supervisor, what are the standards of good enough? Because if you understand the questions, or I was going to say the arena of good enough, then you know where you can apply yourself.
Nikki Kinzer:
Mm-hmm.
Sharon Saline:
And that helps lower that stress.
Nikki Kinzer:
Mm-hmm.
Pete Wright:
That to me gets to the cycle of perfectionism and procrastination. Which I feel like, if I tuck myself into a sort of perfectionist state, where I can't, then that leads me to not starting something because I'm so sort of paralyzed by the story I'm telling myself, about how people won't like it if it's not perfect.
Sharon Saline:
Right. So perfectionism and procrastination is really an attempt to limit your mistakes and reduce future shame. So you are concerned that you're going to mess up now and then you'll be ashamed later, so you want to avoid that.
Pete Wright:
Right.
Sharon Saline:
So you're going to try to do any sorts of other things instead of the task you have to do.
So, Russell Ramsay calls that procrastivity, I call it productive procrastination. Because often, you're doing something else that needs to be needs done, but it's not the task at hand. So you feel like, okay, you see I'm actually doing some things. I'm feeling good about myself, but then I'm really delaying this thing that I'm afraid I'm not going to be able to do and measure up to.
Pete Wright:
Mm-hmm.
Sharon Saline:
And so, what we really want to do is think about this idea of whose standards are we talking about.
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah.
Sharon Saline:
And that's kind of where self-compassion comes in. Because many people with ADHD, and many without who are perfectionists, don't talk to themselves in a nice way. You know?
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah.
Sharon Saline:
They kind of talk to themselves in the way like somebody would have a whip, and whip it on the ground and really be putting yourself down. What I want people to think about is, how would you talk to a third-grader with a skinned knee? Do you talk to yourself that way? Because, usually, the answer is no.
Pete Wright:
Yeah. That's one of the things that's been interesting just in this little series, through our livestream chats, is just hearing the consistent drum of, "I would never in a million years talk to anyone else in the world the way I talk to myself." Third-grader with a skinned knee, best friend, family member. I would never talk to them that way. I would never subject them to that part of my identity, the way I talk to myself.
Sharon Saline:
Mm-hmm. And it's a challenge because if you're someone with ADHD, you're really a creative thinker. You're smart, you're inventive, you're innovative, you're probably fun. You have a lot of ideas. And it's hard, first of all, to reign those ideas in. It's hard to prioritize those ideas.
And then, you want to manifest them in some way. And so, if you have this thing on top of that, which is like, however I manifest it has to be perfect, it's really kind of crippling. You sort of start to crumble down. It's kind of like the Wicked Witch, in The Wizard of Oz, when you pour water on her, you just [inaudible 00:22:16].
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah. And you mentioned recovery, that you're a perfectionist in recovery or however you want.
Sharon Saline:
I am a recovering perfectionist. Yes.
Nikki Kinzer:
Yes. So it's interesting, because there was something that was said to me at the beginning of the week, when we were talking about acceptance of ADHD. And the comment was, I'm realizing that it's just not a one and done thing. I'm not just going to say, "I accept my ADHD, and everything's great in the world." It is continuously something that you have to work on and figure out.
I see the same thing with self-compassion, and directly related to perfectionism, because it isn't just one and done. "Oh, I'm going to really take care of myself."
You might think that, but you really have to intentionally focus on talking to yourself in this moment.
Sharon Saline:
It's so true. Dr. Richard Schwartz is internationally known for internal family systems. And what I like to take from that, and coaches have talked about this for years, is this idea of an inner critic and an inner ally.
I feel like it's an inner critic and an inner cheerleader. Because the critic is so darn strong and powerful, that we need more than an ally. We actually do need someone who is a cheerleader, a motivator. And because the critic has a well-worn path in your brain about what it's telling you, about how you're wrong or stupid or incapable. And I'd like to come up with a different word for cheerleaders. So check back with me, because I'm working on it. I haven't come up with the right C word, because I want it to be perfect.
Nikki Kinzer:
Of course.
Sharon Saline:
Of course. And have alliteration.
But this inner coach, maybe we'll have to go with that.
Nikki Kinzer:
Right.
Sharon Saline:
This inner coach. Okay, I like that.
Nikki Kinzer:
Mm-hmm.
Sharon Saline:
So this inner coach is actually both a cheerleader and an ally.
Nikki Kinzer:
Mm-hmm.
Sharon Saline:
Because it's going to give you some perspective, and take the heat off of you a little bit. So when we're talking about reducing perfectionism, what we're talking about is actually working on the interpersonal needs that are the precursors of perfectionism.
The need to be accepted, the need to be cared for, and the need to feel like you matter. That's kind of underneath all of this. And what the inner critic does is it takes those needs, and lets you know about why you're an imposter, how you failed. I'm not who I present. People don't know the failure I truly am underneath. If I mess up, I'm a bad person. And so, we actually have to work with our inner coach and come up with statements that counteract those phrases.
So some of those statements could be, "I'm doing the best I can in a difficult situation," or, "I'm trying, and it takes time to learn how to do this." What happens is that we want to validate the fact that we're uncertain, or we're nervous, or we're hurt, instead of criticizing ourselves for being weak or vulnerable.
Nikki Kinzer:
Mm-hmm.
Sharon Saline:
So, we want to really put your hand in your heart area, and say, "I'm making an effort here." Efforting takes full body. It's a full body experience, mind and physical and heart. And I think that's really important, you know?
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah.
Sharon Saline:
And we spend so much time comparing ourselves with others, particularly with the phone and online. Teddy Roosevelt said, "Comparison is the thief of joy." Yeah. And so, I call this the Compare and Despair Syndrome.
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah. Because it goes back to who exactly are you comparing yourself to.
Sharon Saline:
Exactly. I learned how to ski really late in life. And it was a short-lived experience because, of course, I tore my ACL and that was it.
But when I was learning to ski, my friend Sheldon, who has ADHD and is a very successful trainer for sales people, he was also a ski instructor. He decided he loves skiing so much, he wanted to teach on Saturdays, at this mountain near my house. And so that's of course how I learned to ski. He's like, "I'll teach you." And I was like, "Okay."
So we're up there in the mountain. And literally, I'm learning to ski. I think I'm like 42 maybe, or something. It's harder at this age, right?
Nikki Kinzer:
Right. Yeah.
Pete Wright:
I didn't even think about that.
Sharon Saline:
Right?
Pete Wright:
Yeah. Right.
Sharon Saline:
And Sheldon has me go down. So we're like, we do the easy trails, and then he decides, okay, it's time for a blue something. I don't know what, it's like a circle. What is it? A circle, a square?
Nikki Kinzer:
I'm not sure. I'm not a skier.
Pete Wright:
Diamonds.
Sharon Saline:
Whatever.
Pete Wright:
Yellow hearts. I think there's a green shamrock in there.
Sharon Saline:
Sheldon takes me down a big tunnel. I'm like, are you kidding me? So literally, I'm falling every few minutes. I ski a little and I fall. I ski a little and I fall. And I get to the middle of the mountain, and I basically turned to Sheldon, and I said, "I hate you."
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah.
Sharon Saline:
And I said, "I hate you and I hate skiing." And he's like, "Hold up." He's very bossy. He's like, "Hold up. Turn around and look at where you came from." And I turned around, and I was like, "Oh my gosh. I came from there? And look, I'm here."
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah.
Sharon Saline:
And I think about this when I think about compare and despair. Because compare and despair is you're looking sideways at what other people are doing.
Pete Wright:
Ooh.
Sharon Saline:
What we want to do is look at where we're coming from individually to where we are now.
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Sharon Saline:
And think about where we're going forward. And people do not do this.
Nikki Kinzer:
No.
Sharon Saline:
Perfectionists do not do this. People with ADHD are not raised to do this. Because from the time you're a little kid, you hear about what you're doing differently that isn't like other kids, and how you should be doing it like that.
Pete Wright:
Well.
Nikki Kinzer:
Wow.
Pete Wright:
That's a disappointingly right-on-target observation. Thanks, Sharon.
Sharon Saline:
You're welcome.
Pete Wright:
Ah.
Nikki Kinzer:
All right, that's powerful. And it's such a good reminder too. I mean, it's almost like a strategy to remember. When you're in the middle of this, and you're feeling like you hate your skiing, whatever it is, you're skiing is, are you looking to the side or are you looking from where you came from and where you want to go forward?
And like you said, most people are looking on the side. And the people on the side aren't even real.
Pete Wright:
Whoa. That's exactly it. They're fake people.
Nikki Kinzer:
They're fake trees. They're not real.
Pete Wright:
This is my thing. There's a guy, we're actually friends, but I have called him for years my nemesis. All the way, because we were both in the same field, and we're both kind of the same age. We even have the same birthday, off by a year or two. And so, I call him my nemesis.
And I realize only now that that is my compare and despair. And the guy that I've been comparing myself to isn't that guy, it's this giant head cartoon caricature of this guy.
Sharon Saline:
Exactly.
Pete Wright:
Who is just more perfect than I am. Even if he has a name of somebody in the real world, that's not who he is. Of course that's not who he is.
Nikki Kinzer:
Right.
Pete Wright:
And he's probably looking at me the same way, right? Or as somebody else. There's always a nemesis.
Sharon Saline:
Right. You know, just don't know. I mean, everybody takes a shower in pretty much the same way, you know?
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Nikki Kinzer:
Mm-hmm.
Sharon Saline:
And so what we want to do, again, we want to validate ourselves rather than deny ourselves any kinds of acknowledgement of what we're doing well or what's going well. So, we want to say things like, "Hm. You know what? I'd really like to impress my boss with this report. It makes sense that I'm nervous about that. I'm not sure I can handle it. It's natural for me to worry a little bit in that situation. So maybe I want to complete the report a day early, and have someone check it out so that I can then make some corrections."
Or, you know, "I want to throw my son the best birthday party ever." Well, good luck with that. You want to throw your son the birthday party that suits your son.
Nikki Kinzer:
Mm-hmm.
Pete Wright:
Mm-hmm.
Sharon Saline:
Right, you know? I think we're very concerned, as a culture now, about what other people think of us. And I am too. I mean, I could easily compare myself to Brené Brown. It would be a short comparison.
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah.
Sharon Saline:
I mean, who wouldn't want to be Brené Brown, right?
Nikki Kinzer:
Right.
Sharon Saline:
But I'm not.
Nikki Kinzer:
Right.
Sharon Saline:
I'm me. I'm Sharon. I'm doing it my way. You're Pete, you're doing it your way. Nikki, you're doing it your way.
Nikki Kinzer:
And that's where the acceptance comes in too, right?
Sharon Saline:
Mm-hmm.
Nikki Kinzer:
I mean, really accepting how you think, how you work.
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Nikki Kinzer:
What you need, and not considering all of the other things that are distracting that. Just what do you want? What do you need out of this?
Sharon Saline:
Right. Yeah.
Nikki Kinzer:
And taking care of that.
Pete Wright:
I'm curious, your observation on domain perfectionism, is that a thing that exists? You find that, I don't know how to put it. I find that perfectionism might sneak up on me, where I didn't even realize that I was a perfectionist about words, or my writing. Or I'm a perfectionist about the technology that I have in my back.
And there are things that I find will drive me to that level of compare and despair, and all of this. But in other areas of my life, I'm really pretty chill. Is that reasonable, or is this a broader behavior trait?
Sharon Saline:
I think it can be linked to certain domains.
Pete Wright:
Mm-hmm.
Sharon Saline:
For example, the one that you're saying. But, usually, I find that there's a little thread of it in other places. But I think there are one or two areas where people are really focused on being perfect. And then there are other areas that they might be willing to be less perfect in, because they know they can't sustain perfection in every single area.
Pete Wright:
Right.
Sharon Saline:
And if you think you can, I just want to dispel that myth, because you can't.
Nikki Kinzer:
Mm-hmm.
Pete Wright:
Fair.
Sharon Saline:
You know, radical acceptance is really about accepting life on life's terms, and accepting yourself on your own terms. Again, we don't say things to ourselves that we would say to a third-grader with a skinned knee.
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Sharon Saline:
And if you're struggling with what to say to yourself, that would be something that your inner coach slash ally could say to you. Think about someone in your life who really loved you or loves you.
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Sharon Saline:
Maybe it was a grandmother, maybe it was a particular teacher who really connected with you when you were younger, or a favorite uncle or an aunt, or a pet. What would that being say to you about you?
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah. That's a very powerful thought, to pause for a moment and be able to identify and recognize where you're instinctively wanting to go. But wait a minute, maybe there's something else I could do instead, that that will actually serve me.
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Sharon Saline:
You know, I work with some clients right now. And one of them, his name is Al. That's a created name, by the way. And Al likes to, he gets frozen when he has to write things, because they have to be perfect, because he wants people to see how smart he is. And so, we're working on this in therapy. Because how you write things is how you write things, and people may or may not infer how smart you are, quote, unquote, from that process.
So we're working on, well, what are these two parts, this inner critic and this inner coach? And the inner critic is called Stupid Al.
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah.
Pete Wright:
Yep.
Sharon Saline:
Stupid Al, literally.
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Sharon Saline:
That was the name of the critic. It was like, who is the voice? What is the negative voice named?Stupid Al.
Pete Wright:
Stupid Al.
Sharon Saline:
And Stupid Al says all kinds of mean things. And I said, "Well, okay. Well, what is the name of that encouraging, caring part of yourself?"
Nikki Kinzer:
Sharon?
Sharon Saline:
Yeah? No.
Nikki Kinzer:
No, that's the name.
Sharon Saline:
[Inaudible 00:36:01]
Nikki Kinzer:
Yes.
Sharon Saline:
You got me.
For him, it was Smart Al. Or Healthy Al. You know? I mean, my inner critic is Perfect Poindexter. And it's a tall, slender, perfect person, who wears medieval garb with one of those long-
Nikki Kinzer:
Yes.
Sharon Saline:
... cigarette holders.
Nikki Kinzer:
Right.
Sharon Saline:
So they can tap at the end, right?
Pete Wright:
Of course.
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah. Yeah.
Sharon Saline:
But it is fun to play with it a little, to create that character. I see that character and it's got a long pointy nose.
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah.
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Sharon Saline:
And it's like, "Let me tell you why this isn't good enough, Sharon." And then on the other side, I have courageous, goofy Sharon. She's like, "What are you talking about? I'm wearing my tie-dye pantsuit."
Nikki Kinzer:
Right. Yeah. What is the psychology of that? Because I'm curious, I had a group recently, and one of the things that he was working on, and it's a group around overwhelm in ADHD. And he really wanted to work around identifying the feeling. Like I want to identify when I'm feeling overwhelmed.
And when he practiced it, it actually really did help throughout the week, because he felt like he had a little bit more control of what was going on. What you just explained is identifying it, and also going a step further of actually visualizing this thing.
Sharon Saline:
Mm-hmm.
Nikki Kinzer:
How does that help us? I'm just curious about the psychology of that.
Sharon Saline:
Well, it's a little bit playful. So what happens is that, not to be too technical here, but that inner critic merges with ourself. Okay?
Nikki Kinzer:
I see.
Sharon Saline:
So with our self-concept, you could call it ego. If you were Jungian, you would call it The Self, you know?
Pete Wright:
Mm-hmm.
Sharon Saline:
So it merges with the self. Schwartz talks about that. And so, it becomes fused. And so then there's no space between who you are and what that critic is saying.
And so, we want to create some space. We want to externalize this particular voice, so that we can actually talk back to it. Because that's where our freedom is. Our freedom's in being able to say, "Thanks. I know you're worried about my performance, but I'm going to turn this thing in because it's due. And if I make a mistake, I actually have the resources within me to manage what's going to happen from that mistake."
That's part of what this is about. I don't possess the tools I need to fix, or take care of, or regroup if something doesn't go well, which actually is very rarely the case.
Nikki Kinzer:
Mm-hmm.
Sharon Saline:
That's a learned helplessness from childhood.
Nikki Kinzer:
Mm-hmm.
Pete Wright:
And another artifact of toxicity.
Sharon Saline:
Correct.
Pete Wright:
Oh my goodness. All right. I got a lot of work to do, you guys.
Sharon Saline:
You know what, here's the thing. In that old adage, two steps forward and one step back? The thing that the adage doesn't take account for is that actually, two steps forward and one step back is still one step forward.
Pete Wright:
One step forward. Yeah.
Nikki Kinzer:
Wow.
Pete Wright:
Right?
Nikki Kinzer:
Okay. That's crazy that you just said that, because I just got a text message from a client today that said that. She said, "I'm two steps forward, one step back." And I'm going to tell her that. When we're done, I'm texting her back.
Sharon Saline:
Exactly.
Nikki Kinzer:
This is what Sharon said.
Sharon Saline:
There you go. But that's so true.
Nikki Kinzer:
It is.
Sharon Saline:
Right?
Nikki Kinzer:
It's so true.
Sharon Saline:
It's so true. Okay, you've made a mistake. I do this for myself. It's like, "Oops, I said the wrong thing," and I had too much intensity behind it. And now, I have to apologize a million times, even though one apology is satisfactory, and the other 999,000 whatever, water it down.
So, we want to see our mistakes, our challenges, as learning opportunities. That's what a growth mindset is about. We want to acknowledge our vulnerabilities as areas for improvement, not personal failures. And to really identify and appreciate our strengths.
So yes, being intense and passionate and interrupting can be challenging, and somewhat limiting at certain times. But it can also mean that you're passionate, and you're fun, and you're exciting to be around, and you're engaged. So, it's a yes and.
Pete Wright:
One of the things we've sort of been uncovering over the last couple of weeks is this idea that hearing somebody talk about doing these things for yourself is one thing. Reading it at a book, you know, "You have to let go of negative self-talk," is one thing.
But actually doing it is something that can feel impossible. What guides do you have for somebody who's living in this sort of liminal space, to actually make it a practice, to actually make this renewed view of one's self a practice in their daily lives?
Sharon Saline:
Hm. It's a great question. So, one thing. One thing.
Pete Wright:
Mm-hmm.
Sharon Saline:
There's one thing that you might want to work on. My husband will say, "I want you to turn off the light in the garage when you come in. And don't put your stuff on the counter, put it in your cubby. And also, could you stop interrupting me?" I'm like, "Which one?"
First of all, why are there three things I'm doing wrong in the first place?
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Sharon Saline:
That feels terrible. And then also, which is the one that you want me to work on? And of course, he's like, "Well, I don't know. They're all important." I'm like, "One."
Pete Wright:
You get one.
Sharon Saline:
One thing.
Nikki Kinzer:
One thing.
Sharon Saline:
He's like, "Well, probably interrupting me." I'm like, "Ugh, the hardest one."
Nikki Kinzer:
The hardest one you want me to do. Yeah.
Sharon Saline:
And then, you're still going to be mad if I don't turn off the garage light. You know?
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah.
Sharon Saline:
So I think the thing is, that what I say, and if I do interrupt, I say, "I'm working on it."
Pete Wright:
Mm-hmm.
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah.
Sharon Saline:
It's a process. You know, I come from a pretty high energy, intense family, where people interrupted all the time.
Nikki Kinzer:
Mm-hmm.
Pete Wright:
Yep.
Nikki Kinzer:
And usually interrupt when I don't feel listened to, or if you're repeating yourself. So, I need to try to figure out how to express that in a different way.
Pete Wright:
But you know, you just hit it. It is amazing to me just how warm the words feel, "I'm working on it." Right? That's actually a statement of love to somebody else or to yourself.
Sharon Saline:
With your hand on your heart.
Pete Wright:
Yeah. Right.
Nikki Kinzer:
I'm working on it. Yes.
Pete Wright:
I'm working on it. It encapsulates an awful lot. I also like one thing. I think the idea of stopping and picking the thing that I'm going to focus on today, to make that just sort of the mantra of my day. This is the thing I'm going to change. One thing, period. One thing.
Sharon Saline:
I mean, that's the problem with New Year's resolutions.
Pete Wright:
Mm-hmm.
Sharon Saline:
People come up with seven.
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Sharon Saline:
Who could do seven things in one year?
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah.
Sharon Saline:
This year, I'm going to work on interrupting less. That's it.
Nikki Kinzer:
Mm-hmm.
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Sharon Saline:
And I'm living and I'm learning, because I'm human and I'm awake. You know?
Nikki Kinzer:
Right.
Sharon Saline:
So I may stumble, I may forget. And that's okay. That is an opportunity for me to pivot and own what I'm doing. Be accountable, and then keep trying.
Nikki Kinzer:
Right. Right.
Pete Wright:
Yeah, I love it. I love it.
Nikki Kinzer:
So great.
Pete Wright:
This is great, Sharon.
Nikki Kinzer:
Thanks so much.
Pete Wright:
As we wrap up here, tell us what you're working on. What are you working on right now that's amazing?
Sharon Saline:
What am I working on right now? Well, I am finishing up a book proposal, that is I hope someday going to be a graphic novel for kids with ADHD.
Pete Wright:
Oh, fun.
Sharon Saline:
Related to my 5 C's of ADHD. And I'm redoing my website.
Nikki Kinzer:
Yay.
Pete Wright:
Outstanding.
Sharon Saline:
And that's like one thing.
Pete Wright:
That's one thing.
Sharon Saline:
And then there's the book on anxiety.
Pete Wright:
Yep.
Sharon Saline:
That I want to write too.
Nikki Kinzer:
Right. Now, we've got three. Okay. Now we have three things.
Pete Wright:
Three things, Sharon.
Nikki Kinzer:
Two books.
Sharon Saline:
The number one thing. The website is the number one thing.
Pete Wright:
That's the number one thing.
Nikki Kinzer:
That's the number one thing. Yeah. Yeah.
Pete Wright:
Well, we're going to put links to the website in whatever state that it happens to be in, when you happen to hit it, in the show notes.
Sharon Saline:
Thank you.
Pete Wright:
Along with links to all of Sharon's great stuff that she's talked about, in the years that she's been coming back to this show.
Thank you so much, Sharon. You are a wonderful gift to us and the community. We appreciate you so much.
Sharon Saline:
Thank you so much for having me. I really enjoyed this. I learned a lot. It was really great to be both participating in this conversation and learning simultaneously. So, thank you.
Pete Wright:
That's very kind, very kind. And we appreciate all of you for downloading and listening to this show. Thank you for your time and your attention.
Don't forget, if you have something to contribute to the conversation, we're heading over to the Show Talk channel in the Discord server, and you can join us right there by becoming a supporting member at the deluxe level, or better.
On behalf of Dr. Sharon Saline and Nikki Kinzer, I'm Pete Wright. And we'll see you right back here next week on Taking Control, The ADHD Podcast.
