The Power of Why: Unraveling the Significance of an ADHD Diagnosis
This week, we delve into the introspective realm of self-discovery, exploring the profound impact of understanding the reasons behind our behaviors and actions. The big question: does knowing the difference between ADHD-related struggles and those common to everyone truly matter?
We also touch upon the intricate relationship between ADHD and identity, acknowledging the prevalence of the comparison game within the ADHD community. We know what it’s like to grapple with the fear of misdiagnosis and the paradoxical reluctance to hypothetically eradicate ADHD from our lives.
Delving deeper into the human psyche, we explore the innate desire to find meaning and purpose behind our experiences. Knowing “ why” drives our actions and emotional reactions, from fostering moral development in children to cultivating mastery in students and nurturing personal relationships.
It’s a challenging question and our hope is that we have offered a nuanced perspective on the significance of knowing the difference. While understanding the reasons behind our challenges may not provide an instant solution, it can offer a valuable framework for acceptance, perspective, and effective problem-solving.
Links & Notes
-
Pete Wright:
Hello everybody, and welcome to Taking Control: The ADHD Podcast on TruStory FM. I'm Pete Wright, and I'm here with Nikki Kinzer.
Nikki Kinzer:
Hello everyone. Hello, Pete Wright.
Pete Wright:
Hi, Nikki. I feel like I'm just listening to myself. I don't sound good. I sound sick. I am a little sick.
Nikki Kinzer:
No, you don't.
Pete Wright:
I got a sore throat. I'm a little stuffed up. I went to see Beetlejuice last night, sitting in a big theater, feeling like somebody gave me something. I don't love it.
Nikki Kinzer:
Oh no.
Pete Wright:
Yeah, I don't know.
Nikki Kinzer:
Oh no. I'm sorry. I did not know that. You did not mention that in our little pre-show so I-
Pete Wright:
The sick part.
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah, you did not mention the sick part. We talked about everything else-
Pete Wright:
No, I saved it for the public.
Nikki Kinzer:
But not about that. I'm sorry.
Pete Wright:
Public gets the sickness.
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah.
Pete Wright:
So I'm sorry if any of you get sick, you can't get it through a podcast as far as I know. But it's not settled science yet, so we'll see. We going to talk about... We've been talking about comorbid conditions, comorbidities over the last several weeks associated with ADHD, and today we're going to take a bit to look inward and think about why knowing the reason behind our behaviors means so much to us as human beings. And for me, it comes off of a comment that Michael Felt made when we were talking about anxiety and depression, and I've been really noodling on it. And so this week's subject is... It is right at home for me right now, today.
Nikki Kinzer:
Good. You're noodled.
Pete Wright:
I've been thoroughly noodled. Before we dig into this, before we really ADHD it up, you got to get to know us a little bit better. You head over to takecontroladhd.com and you see all the stuff that we've been up to over there. You can listen to the show on the website or subscribe to the mailing list, and we'll send you an email each time a new episode is released.
I do have an announcement and it's about Google Podcasts and YouTube, and I'm really sorry for anybody who is subscribing to the show in Google Podcasts or YouTube music. If you have found the show there, the URL changed. And so if you're subscribed now, you can just go to the website, click on the YouTube button and get yourself subscribed to the right proper feed. They've made lots of changes over there, and I'm sorry. I know people listen to the show through YouTube music, and it's not my fault, but there is a new URL and it's been updated on all the websites. So if you click on it, that's the show that's going to update. So if you're listening on YouTube, you're not even going to hear this announcement. I don't know what I'm doing. But that's what you need to do.
Nikki Kinzer:
But it's been made, so you've done your part.
Pete Wright:
I'm putting it out there in the form of a faith healing, just hoping that just being in the universe, people will hear it. So do that. But if you really want to hang out with us, hang out with us in the ADHD Discord community. We'd love to have you over there. Super easy to jump into the general community chat channel. Just visit takecontroladhd.com/discord and you'll be whisked over to the general invitation and login. If you're looking for a little bit more, particularly if this show has touched you and your ADHD in a special way, then head over to patreon.com/theadhdpodcast.
Patreon is listener supported podcasting. You've heard me say it before. The deal is this. This show is supported thanks to the people who have been able to support us with their contributions each month or year, and that's how the show keeps coming back. It's how we are able to invest in the time to keep building infrastructure and we're finding great guests, and it supports the team behind the scenes that you don't see often enough and the folks who keep Discord running. So patreon.com/theadhdpodcast. If you like the show, if you've been a long time listener, check it out, consider supporting the show that way. It helps keep us afloat and we like to float.
Nikki Kinzer:
We do. It's fun.
Pete Wright:
We really, really like to keep floating and keep the engine of this show hammering forward. So thank you everybody who is supporting us, and to those who are thinking about it today, we thank you too. Nikki.
Nikki Kinzer:
Pete.
Pete Wright:
Here's the thing. Apparently I was not there, but this topic did come up in a roundtable discussion in a session from a book club group that we have hosted.
Nikki Kinzer:
Yes.
Pete Wright:
The question was, does knowing the difference really matter? Do you understand the context of that question? Knowing the difference. The difference of what?
Nikki Kinzer:
The difference of, is this my ADHD or is this just who I am as a person?
Pete Wright:
Right.
Nikki Kinzer:
Yes. And then also it comes up, well, definitely the majority of the time it comes up in that way. Is this ADHD or is this me and this is just who I am? But it's also come up in other situations where an inquiry, somebody will come to me for coaching and they're not sure if they have ADHD, but they still want to work with me because they feel like they have ADHD characteristics and symptoms. They just haven't had the actual diagnosis, which I always encourage them to go and get the diagnosis because I think it does matter.
Pete Wright:
Okay. Why?
Nikki Kinzer:
I think it matters for the diagnosis, because as we've been learning in this series, so many different things overlap. So what could look like ADHD could also be depression. It could also be anxiety. Anxiety could be coming from the ADHD, the ADHD could be putting you into a depression. So there's all these things, and so as Dr. [inaudible 00:06:11] shared with us last week, not yesterday, that's funny that it feels like it was just yesterday, but he shared with us when treating OCD the importance of figuring out if there's ADHD, almost... The ADHD almost needs to be treated before the OS or the... Oh God, I can't say all these words.
Pete Wright:
OCD.
Nikki Kinzer:
These letters.
Pete Wright:
All the letters, they're very complex. Some of them are new.
Nikki Kinzer:
There's so many letters, but I think it is important to get that diagnosis because you do want to make sure it's the right diagnosis so that you know what you're treating and making sure that all of it is being treated. So I do think that's important. Do I think it's important if it's the ADHD or if it's you as a person? That's a different question. I don't know.
Pete Wright:
This is where it gets sticky, right?
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah.
Pete Wright:
This is where it gets sticky because for so long we have said on this show, part of the mantra of this show is we are behaviorally focused. It doesn't matter if you have a diagnosis, if learning the tools that come from you as a coach, the things that we talk about actually help you live your life better. None of it matters. Who cares if you have a diagnosis?
Nikki Kinzer:
It really doesn't, right.
Pete Wright:
As long as it helps you. And so we had this conversation with Michael Felt and he said, please stop self-diagnosing. Right?
Nikki Kinzer:
Yes.
Pete Wright:
He said, don't come in and tell me if you're interested in hearing clinically what might be going on with you. Don't come in and say that you think you're OCD or ADHD or whatever. Tell me about your day. Let's talk about behavior first. I think we're saying the same thing, but it's important to recognize that having the words to describe your behavior, especially if your behavior is a significant impact on your life. Having the words is like having the index to a book, right?
Nikki Kinzer:
Right.
Pete Wright:
You know where to start to research about this stuff. And that is important.
Nikki Kinzer:
It is.
Pete Wright:
But if it's really just like I need some help figuring out how to work my day and I'm busy and I don't know if I can go through the diagnostic process and maybe actually all I need is somebody to help me be accountable to myself and my schedule and my family. Maybe if you're never going to go in to sit down with a clinician and ask the question, what do I have? Maybe it doesn't matter at all what you're living with. I was implicitly diagnosed with something new and my doctor didn't even use the words with me because it didn't matter. He helped me figure out a new thing, and I had to come to him and say, do we think that I have this thing? And he said, well, yeah. In a second appointment it was like, yeah, I think you do. So we're trying some things. And I think that's really interesting. So sometimes I think the words can clog us. They can clog us and not be terribly helpful. But a lot of time they really are.
Nikki Kinzer:
They are. And I think one of the ways that I relate to this personally is my daughter's been having a lot of health issues and we can't figure out what's wrong. And the doctor, she's seeing a rheumatologist now, and he said, the blood work isn't looking like it's lupus, but you have all of the characteristics of lupus and this is how we're going to treat you. So we're treating the symptoms and then let's see what happens. And I think it's sort of the same when we're talking about diagnosis part. It's just interesting to me, and I was really thankful that he's treating the symptoms. He's not putting a label on it yet because we don't know if it's lupus. It may not be, it could be another autoimmune situation that's going on, but all of the symptoms that she's having is looking like that.
And he's like, we're going to treat the symptoms and see if we can't make you feel better. And so I think it's good to have answers in that situation. We want some answers, but it's going to take some time to figure that out. With ADHD, it's also, it can take a while to figure that out too. It can take some time to get that diagnosis, and then it takes time to really believe it and to accept it. And that's where I think when people come to coaching, they're often wondering, is it the ADHD or is it me? And I know that with coaching, I think it really is important that we identify where ADHD is showing up in your life because that way it feels...
I don't want anyone to ever feel like they're alone or that something's wrong with them, that no, this is actually part of your ADHD. There's a level of understanding there. Then they can say, oh, it's not just me. There is something that is making planning really hard. There is something that is making time management really difficult or organizing my space really difficult. It's not just them being lazy or unmotivated. So those kinds of things I think make a difference too, to understand the diagnosis. Really muddy.
Pete Wright:
Yeah. Well, it is muddy, and I think you... I mean talking about the lupus conversation really applies writ large. The fact that you know ADHD looks so different in so many different people right across the spectrum and-
Nikki Kinzer:
Absolutely.
Pete Wright:
OCD and anxiety, it is so different for everybody that it takes some observational time to figure it out. Sometimes when... My family's diagnostic process is like, we're going in, we're sitting down for the assessments and within 10 minutes it's like, oh, no, we got it. We figured it out.
Nikki Kinzer:
We know this.
Pete Wright:
Right. Sometimes it takes a while. Sometimes it takes a while to figure out what your lived experience is. And so that's why I think it's so important, and I guess that's what I've been noodling on over the last couple of weeks is it's so important to focus less on the terms and more on the behavior, right?
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah.
Pete Wright:
Think about your day, think about how you interact with the world and what the bucket of behaviors look like. Now, it takes me back to something that we talked about with, we've talked about with a number of folks, of psychologists who talk about capital and lowercase terms. And I know Dr. Dodge does this all the time with trauma. Capital T trauma, lowercase T trauma. There are traumatic experiences or we could have a traumatic day, something that causes us distress. And there are people who have had... They are massive trauma survivors, that's capital T. Abuse survivors, survivors trauma, they survived something massive and they're living with a different kind of trauma.
The term is a catch all for a set of behaviors, just like ADHD. You could almost say there's a capital ADHD and a lowercase ADHD. For those with a diagnosis, capital ADHD makes it very easy to talk about it. But you know what? We're talking about the same thing with lowercase ADHD, people whose lives are impacted by a set of behaviors absent a diagnosis. Does the diagnosis help? Sure, especially if you're going to go out and start thinking about medicating for ADHD. Does it necessarily help you find your keys in the morning? No, it does not. That requires a different set of perspectives.
Nikki Kinzer:
That's a good point.
Pete Wright:
Is that fair?
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah, that's a really good point.
Pete Wright:
Because I want to make sure I'm not... Because I'm talking about things that I've been thinking about and I just want to make sure I'm bouncing it off of you in a way that helps people listening to this. It is possible, I think, to hold too much weight on the term when the behavior is important and the term is also important for other contexts.
Nikki Kinzer:
Yes. Well, and something I want to add to this is that I see a lot of people... And it's interesting because when we had this conversation in the book club, this is a little bit of where it headed to was comparing themselves to neurotypicals. So does somebody without ADHD do this? And there's this wonder too of the difference between somebody that has ADHD and somebody that doesn't have ADHD. I think it's an unfair comparison to compare yourself to anyone regardless if you have ADHD or not, because it just doesn't matter. Because as you were saying, everybody... There's a spectrum here. So ADHD looks different in everyone. And as Dr. Dotson has said many times, you meet one person with ADHD, you meet one person with ADHD.
Pete Wright:
One person with ADHD.
Nikki Kinzer:
You meet one person that doesn't have ADHD, that's only one person that doesn't have ADHD. We all have strengths and weaknesses, and so that is a comparison that I typically don't even really like to uncover because it's not relevant. I think it's important, again, to look at what are you struggling with? What is happening in your life that you want to explore? And let's talk about that.
Pete Wright:
I think some of the interesting things that have come up over the last couple of weeks, and particularly the conversation with Dr. [inaudible 00:16:16], when he was talking about this in the context of comorbidities, that there is a discovery factor that comes with finally using the terms in a clinical context that does matter. And so on the side of figuring out what you're living with, this story of Dr. [inaudible 00:16:35] realizing that the OCD experience paired with chronic lateness, lack of a motivation for treatment was actually a struggle of ADHD, that became kind of the Dr. House level mystery of behavioral science.
We have to really start uncovering some things, and particularly if you're on the autism ADHD spectrum... When you're talking about comorbidities, the terms do matter. The terms do matter. And so I don't want to... I always feel like I risk coming off on one side of an opinion, and I hedge my bets so much in my language that I end up coming off on all sides of the opinion.
Nikki Kinzer:
It's hard.
Pete Wright:
It's so hard.
Nikki Kinzer:
I mean, because it really just depends. I mean, there's pros and cons, I guess, to everything, and that's what we're discovering.
Pete Wright:
But what it gets to, and I think is a really good question for you as a coach is at what point do people need to know what it is because it is about their identity?
Nikki Kinzer:
See, that's tough because I would ask... I have so many questions around that. How do you identify identity? What does that mean? I am ADHD? Are you meeting people and, hi, my name is Nikki Kinzer. I have ADHD. Is that the first thing you're saying? I really want to know what that means to people. What is a sense of identity? Is it a part of who they are? Is it who they are? Do they accept it? Do they not accept it? Because if you're fighting with your ADHD all the time, you don't want that to be your identity, because then you're not liking yourself. You're fighting with yourself all the time. And so this kind of goes into radical acceptance. How do you get to a point where, yes, this is what I have, this is how I see the world, but that's okay.
That's how I see the world, and so I'm going to accommodate where I need to accommodate, but also not fit in, but I'm going to do what I need to do my way. I don't know. I mean, this is, again, such a muddy thing because ADHD symptoms, if we look at timeliness, we look at disorganization, working memory, all of these things that can happen with ADHD, hard to get started, hyper-focus. I would never tell you Pete that you're a horrible human being because you showed up 15 minutes late to a meeting. Now, what caused you to show up 15 minutes in that meeting could very well have been something ADHD related, but it doesn't make you a bad person.
Pete Wright:
Right. I would hope not.
Nikki Kinzer:
No.
Pete Wright:
If you knew what I was... That I actually sacrifice puppies to the...
Nikki Kinzer:
All of the things.
Pete Wright:
God, that's why I was late because of the puppies I sacrificed.
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah, that's where I get really protective of what do you mean by identity? I wear glasses, but I'm not... Is that who I am? I don't know. I mean I have anxiety, is that... I don't know.
Pete Wright:
That's the better comparison, I think, than glasses.
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah, probably.
Pete Wright:
I think that because... Wow, so hard. We asked this question in a happy hour, would you want to eliminate ADHD from the world? That it was just completely gone. You never knew what ADHD was.
Nikki Kinzer:
And all of our jobs were gone.
Pete Wright:
All of our jobs were gone. I ask you the same question about anxiety. We both live with anxiety to a degree, so would you want to get rid of anxiety as a concept? Nobody ever felt anxiety. Nobody ever knew what it was.
Nikki Kinzer:
This is my anxiety talking. No, because then I would be afraid that bad things would happen and I wouldn't be prepared. So no, I don't want to get rid of it. It's protecting me.
Pete Wright:
Exactly. It's kind of a perfect parallel, but I wouldn't want to get rid of anxiety either. The fact that I have an anxious muscle that is overdeveloped, it still implies I have an anxiety muscle that actually helps me read the world in a way that is comfortable to me in a really strange way. I don't love the invasive thoughts. I don't love how it makes me treat certain sharp edges of my life, but in general, I feel like I'm more prepared and can read the world in a different way as a result of my relationship with anxiety. And kind of the same thing with my ADHD. ADHD is not a superpower. I'm not in superpower camp, but it also allows me to do some interesting things with my brain that it's an overdeveloped kind of attention muscle that acts on its own, but sometimes it allows me to make connections that I think are interesting. It allows me to focus and pivot in new ways. I would never want to get rid of it because it is part of who I am, right?
Nikki Kinzer:
Yes. And so now I'm going back and forth because it's true. You think about what does it mean to accept your ADHD, and we are saying it is accepting that this is who you are. This is part of who you are. This is not who you are. It's part of who you are. And some of these things are hard, and that's okay. So then it is really coming to terms with it, and... Yeah, this is so hard. This is a really hard question to answer or to just talk about this topic because it's just...
Pete Wright:
It's like everything else that I think we've been evolving toward in our conversations and really our worldview around Take Control: ADHD, which is your relationship with ADHD, is your relationship with ADHD. It's not anyone else's. And if you identify as part of your personality, your identity as living with ADHD, great. That's great. And also you don't have to, you can identify as having ADHD traits or ADHD behaviors, however you want to do it, that's fine. I think that when it becomes a challenge is when we start looking at trying to figure out how to relate to the world in a way that isn't maladaptive. And that is when we start saying, I need to know why. I need to know how the engine works. I need to know how things are plugged in. I need to medicate. I need to figure that out.
And Melissa found this article, which I think is right on point from Psychology Today by Dr. Alex Lickerman, who says... Even the way he talks about it is finding an overarching meaning in our lives can instill a purpose for our lives, a reason for living. It's not just about learning about my ADHD, it's about, "Why is what drives not only everything we do, but our emotional reactions to everything that happens to us." I think that's a really important thing. The number one question I think we as humans have asked in our lives is why? We start asking why immediately after we start asking what?
Nikki Kinzer:
Exactly.
Pete Wright:
Is that thing right there. It's a dog. Okay, why?
Nikki Kinzer:
Why?
Pete Wright:
Why the dog? That's the first thing that we start thinking about as we look at how the world relates to itself. And so it doesn't surprise me to hear that people struggle with the behavior definition part of the discussion, and leaning into that maybe exactly what you need to do. And also, if the behavior is the thing that you're struggling with and you don't care about the diagnosis, that's okay too. That's really okay.
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah, absolutely. Well, and I have a family member who's very much like that, and I adore him, and he lives his life on his terms for sure. And I don't know if he would actually say he has ADHD, but if he asked his wife, she would definitely say he does, but it doesn't matter. And so, yeah, I think there's all kinds of ways to live with this.
Pete Wright:
Can I ask you a related question?
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah.
Pete Wright:
How did you remember when you started talking to your kids about anxiety?
Nikki Kinzer:
They were pretty young because they both suffer from it, but my son definitely did more so when he was younger than my daughter did. Do I remember how I started talking about it? Is that what you're asking?
Pete Wright:
Yeah. I kind of do, because this is one of the things that comes out of the Dr. Lickerman research. Research has suggested that taking the time to explain yourself will help your children develop a moral conscience, your students achieve mastery, your employees stay happy, and your personal relationships flourish. So I'm thinking about your relationship with your anxiety and how you essentially role model that behavior to your kids.
Nikki Kinzer:
Well, I'll be honest, most of the time I hid it from them when they were younger. They never knew. I don't even know if they really know a whole lot now because I don't really talk about it. I will tell you, there was a specific time when my son was younger, and I could tell you he was almost on the verge of having a panic attack. And I think I've told this story before, I'm not sure. But our neighbors had a party, their eighth grader was graduating and going into high school, and so they had this party for her classmates, and they put one of those... Two of those big balloon things, not balloon things, but those jumpy houses in our cul-de-sac with the slides and stuff. And they were so nice. My kids were quite smaller. They were in elementary school, but they came over and said, hey, if your kids want to come over and play, they're nice kids. They will totally let them play.
And my son wanted to go out there so bad, but he was so anxious about it because these are big kids. These are big kids. And I remember kind of holding him because he was just sort of, not freaking out, but that's the best way I can kind of explain it. And parents out there know what I mean. So I kind of held him and I'm like, it's okay. It's all right. And I could feel his heartbeat just beating, beating, beating, beating. But he wanted to go out there so bad. I'm like, you know what? It's okay. Let's take a couple of deep breaths. If you want to go out there, I'll go out there with you. It's okay. And just sort of trying to get him to calm that nervous system a little bit by breathing and just taking a moment to think about what are your options here?
And eventually he did end up going out there, and they were nice kids and they were playing with them and everything was great. So to answer your question, I never really talked about it with me personally, but I did try to help them get through it because I could see what was happening. I got it. I understood it. I didn't force him to go out there. I wasn't making him feel bad. All of those things that you tend to want to be like, it's going to be fine. Go, go, go. It's going to be fine. No, let's breathe. When you're ready, if you don't want to do it, it's okay, kind of thing.
Pete Wright:
Yeah. I think the ADHD conversation for me and my kids was a little bit different, only because it was obvious. At some point their why questions were, why did you say you were going to do this thing yesterday and still haven't done it?
Nikki Kinzer:
Oh, interesting.
Pete Wright:
Why are you late to pick me up again? So when you can observe that behavior, when you can observe the medical anxiety, when they see the evidence of the things that I'm living with, it makes it a different... And I realized that early on, I never used the terms with my kids. I just described the behavior, and I just described it in a way that sometimes my brain does some things that might be different than your friends or your friend's parents, and just behaves in a little bit of a different way. And that's kind of what I'm living with. It became much, much easier when my kids were diagnosed then the floodgates are open and we get to talk about everything. But until then, it was just like I have to describe my behavior in a way that doesn't justify it, because I don't want to justify being late. I want to set better tools to make it sure I'm not late, and that's what I had to do. But I do want them to understand the root.
Nikki Kinzer:
And that's probably, I think what we've kind of clarified here is the difference between the anxiety and ADHD, because anxiety is so internal and there's not a lot of external symptoms that somebody would notice that I'm having this feeling, where ADHD, there are these symptoms that come up like being late, that are so obvious that something is going on.
Pete Wright:
That's so funny. I was driving with a dear friend, a mutual friend that we were driving through the woods on a trip, just the two of us, and I was in the middle of a massive... I was driving and I got myself in a thought spiral and was in the middle of a massive panic attack that I was having a heart attack, and my left arm went completely numb, and we stopped for a bathroom break, and I went behind the car and started throwing up.
Nikki Kinzer:
Wow.
Pete Wright:
And it was years later that I told him that that experience happened, and he had no idea.
Nikki Kinzer:
He thought you were just sick.
Pete Wright:
We talk about masking. Yeah. And why was I masking? He didn't even know I was throwing up. He went into the bathroom and I just...
Nikki Kinzer:
Oh wow.
Pete Wright:
He never saw any of it. I just couldn't speak for 30 straight minutes. And it's one of those things like you talk about how we mask our behavior. Why didn't I... He's a dear friend, why didn't we talk about it? Why did I continue unsafe behavior? I should not have been driving a car because I didn't know how to talk about it at that point. I didn't know how. So I think that leans in on the why do you need to learn what the words mean? Because it'll give you a guide on how to talk to people [inaudible 00:32:01] the most.
Nikki Kinzer:
How to talk about it. Right.
Pete Wright:
Okay. This has been exhausting. So thanks.
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah. Good conversation. So we end with this question-
Pete Wright:
But important, really important.
Nikki Kinzer:
Yes. Does knowing the difference really matter?
Pete Wright:
Yeah, maybe.
Nikki Kinzer:
Maybe.
Pete Wright:
Ultimately, I think probably yes.
Nikki Kinzer:
I think so too.
Pete Wright:
To a degree, and I think this question is also on its own spectrum.
Nikki Kinzer:
Right, I think so too.
Pete Wright:
It depends on what you're trying to get out of it, and that's okay too.
Nikki Kinzer:
Exactly.
Pete Wright:
There's nothing prescriptive about it other than going down a certain path may require you to learn more, disclose more than another path, and that's okay. It's your path. It's an important conversation to have with yourself. If you don't have a Nikki, I encourage you to get one, but if you don't, it's important to just think about it.
Nikki Kinzer:
Think about it.
Pete Wright:
Think about it a little bit, and see how it changed the way you relate to the world around you. Thank you everybody for hanging out and listening to us exhaust ourselves with these kinds of moral quandaries. We sure appreciate you downloading and listening. We appreciate your time and your attention. Don't forget, if you have something to contribute, head over to the show talk channel in the Discord server, and you can join us right there by becoming a supporting member at the deluxe level or better. On behalf of Nikki Kinzer, I'm Pete Wright, and we'll see you right back here next week on Taking Control: The ADHD Podcast.
