Unapologetically Awesome with Penn & Kim Holderness
This week on The ADHD Podcast, hosts Nikki Kinzer and Pete Wright wrangle the comedic duo, Penn and Kim Holderness, authors of the New York Times bestselling book, ADHD is Awesome. Known for their viral videos (and possibly for single-handedly introducing COVID to the US, but we'll let Kim explain that one), the Holdernesses bring their signature blend of humor and honesty to a conversation about ADHD, vulnerability, and the art of the perfectly timed split jump.
Kim, the self-proclaimed anxiety and OCD whisperer to Penn's whirlwind of ADHD energy, shares her side of the story, revealing the secrets to thriving in a relationship where lost car keys and forgotten stoves are just part of the daily soundtrack.
Penn takes us on a trip down memory lane, from his shirt-chewing, interruption-filled childhood to the college years where academic probation became an unwelcome roommate. He shares how ADHD has shaped their careers, from the fast-paced world of local news to the creative explosion of online content creation. And yes, he finally explains the genius behind the cauliflower rice video – prepare for a philosophical debate that will divide your family for generations.
Join Pete and Nikki for a laugh-out-loud, yet touching conversation with Penn and Kim. This episode is packed with relatable anecdotes, practical tips, and a healthy reminder that even in the midst of chaos, there's always room for connection, understanding, and maybe even a well-placed split jump.
Links & Notes
Find links to all their goodies at TheHoldernessFamily.com
Pick up ADHD is Awesome
Pick up Unapologetically ADHD
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Pete Wright:
Hello everybody and welcome to Taking Control: The ADHD Podcast on TruStory FM. I'm Pete Wright, and I'm here with Nikki Kinzer.
Nikki Kinzer:
Hi, Pete Wright.
Pete Wright:
Hi, Nikki Kinzer. Good day. It's a good-
Nikki Kinzer:
Yes, it is, it's a great day.
Pete Wright:
[inaudible 00:00:24] month. We are in the middle of a cavalcade of ADHD awareness extravaganzas and we're starting today with one of our very favorite inspirational setup. Before I do the big introduction though, don't forget, head over to takecontroladhd.com to get to know us a little bit better. You can listen to the show right there on the website or subscribe to the mailing list right there on the homepage, we'll send you an email each time a new episode is released. Connect with us on Facebook or Instagram or Pinterest at takecontroladhd, but we'd love you to jump into the Discord channel, that's where all the really, really great stuff is happening. That's where our ADHD community lives, just head to takecontroladhd.com/discord and you will be whisked, I tell you, whisked over to the general invitation and login.
If you're looking for a little bit more, particularly if the show has ever touched you or helped you to understand your relationship with a ADHD in a new way. We invite you to support the show directly through Patreon. Patreon is listener-supported podcasting, and with a few dollars a month, you can help guarantee that we continue to grow the show, add new features, invest more heavily in our community, visit patreon.com/theadhdpodcast to learn more. And don't forget, we have a book in ADHD, Unapologetically ADHD. You can get it anywhere books are sold. But we're not here to talk about that today, you should buy it, but then not talk about it. Let's start.
Penn and Kim Holderness are authors of the New York Times bestselling book, ADHD is Awesome, they're also award-winning online content creators known for their original music song parodies, comedy sketches and a weekly podcast. Their videos have resulted in over two billion views and over nine million followers. Penn and Kim have been married for 19 years, still 19 years?
Kim Holderness:
Mm-hmm.
Pete Wright:
Excellent, 19 years their bios are updated, and were winners on the Amazing Grace season 33 on CBS, where I learned from Kim in my research on this show that they're responsible for bringing COVID to the United States so.
Kim Holderness:
Yes, basically.
Pete Wright:
Outstanding. They're here with us today to talk about ADHD and vulnerability and creativity and what it means to be an ADHD inspiration for so many. Penn and Kim, welcome to the ADHD Podcast.
Kim Holderness:
Thank you so much for having us.
Pete Wright:
Oh my god.
Nikki Kinzer:
Welcome.
Pete Wright:
I agree. Usually, I would open with a question for both of you, but this one is for Penn. Penn, can we talk about split jumps at our age?
Penn Holderness:
Wait, split jumps, is that ... Oh-
Pete Wright:
Yeah, when you're doing the guitar-
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah, when you did the Cauliflower Rice video.
Pete Wright:
Oh, for crying out loud.
Penn Holderness:
Yeah. Sorry.
Pete Wright:
[inaudible 00:03:01].
Penn Holderness:
I was a basketball player growing up and I was a jumper, I've always been a good jumper. I'm not a good squatter, I'm not a lot of heroic downward guitar poses, I can't do anything. I see people squat down to talk to little kids and babies and I'm like, "Well, I would be in the hospital if someone asked me to do that." But with very little hip hinging I'm still a decent jumper. And that's all I got, everything else is completely broken down.
Kim Holderness:
If he's picking up things on the floor, he's like, "It's so far down."
Penn Holderness:
It is, it's a long way down, it's amazing.
Pete Wright:
Give me all the kitchen tops chores, don't give me-
Kim Holderness:
Yes, yeah.
Nikki Kinzer:
That's right.
Pete Wright:
Well, it's outstanding and I'll tell you the rice video ideological breakdown in our family, really.
Penn Holderness:
Oh, really?
Pete Wright:
Yeah, no, we have a real rift in what is rice and what is not rice. Go watch it, everybody.
Nikki Kinzer:
Well, and I just have to say, I have a best friend who I complain to about everyday life and I, your video, Kim about anxiety with everything's fine, I'm fine, everything's fine. So, yesterday she asked me, "How's everything going?" I'm like, "It's fine, everything's fine."
Kim Holderness:
And behind you, there's the explosions and kids crying and cars are on fire and you're like, "It's fine, it's all good, everything's going to be fine."
Pete Wright:
It turns out ADHD and anxiety actually inspired the Cool Kids Don't Look At Explosions meme, right? Because it's fine, it's all fine. So, you wrote a book we're going to talk about that in a bit, but can we just talk briefly? I know you guys, I've listened to your podcast, I know you've talked about it a bunch. But let's give us a tight two minutes on the diagnosis experience. Because I know Penn, you were diagnosed as an adult, right? And so there is a, give us the arc of your relationship as it relates to your ADHD and get the safety pillow for hugs.
Kim Holderness:
You know what it is? I'm so short and this couch is so, I just [inaudible 00:05:06].
Pete Wright:
That's a problem, yeah.
Penn Holderness:
You know this Ikea couch that we bought that constricts the lungs, like pushing you forward?
Pete Wright:
Oh, sure.
Penn Holderness:
It's not comfortable.
Kim Holderness:
Yeah, it's not.
Penn Holderness:
Yeah.
Kim Holderness:
Sorry.
Penn Holderness:
Okay, so let me try to do this in a few minutes. There's kind of three phases. There was my childhood where it wasn't a thing, ADHD was not a thing that my parents knew about. It was out there but they didn't know. I chewed on my shirts and I interrupted people and I had a tough time finishing conversations but I got through it. I had an executive functioning master of a mother who kind of was my crutch for a long, long time. The emotional side was still there, I cried easily, I got upset easily. But then, I found my group to help me get through it and that was theater arts. I found a bunch of other people who were okay with all that spontaneity.
Once I got to college and my mom was gone, my executive functioning master was gone, I went on academic probation twice and finally approached just as an issue to a symptom like I can't do all these things and the doctor approached me in a medical way and said, "Here's some drugs," and that was about it. Not, "Here's some behavioral interventions, here's some systems to put in place, here's some drugs that'll help you out." And it got me through college. I graduated thanks to the medication and thanks to the diagnosis, but it really wasn't more than that. I took myself off medication when I found a job, local television, which really moves at about eight seconds at a time and was really, really good for my ADHD. I found a smoking hot wife-
Kim Holderness:
Smoking hot.
Penn Holderness:
Who was able to accept me for all of my warts, my ADHD being I think one of those challenging warts, although sometimes it's good. And then, really the book came about because of the third phase, which was I've got kids, I'm running a company with my wife and stuff started falling through the cracks again big time. And I'd never learned about what my ADHD was. I knew that I liked my brain but I didn't understand what was going on up there. And so, the third phase was just the knowledge and the systems that I put in place, which was probably more important to me than the diagnosis. Was that two minutes?
Pete Wright:
It was pretty good.
Nikki Kinzer:
It was great, yeah and I have a question. So, what you're saying is you were doing this research and coming around this awareness after you guys have already been doing the videos and all of that and had this company?
Penn Holderness:
Yeah, I was aware that my scatterbrain or whatever people want to call it, I was aware somehow in the back of my mind that it was helping me with this job, that it helped me with local news, that it helped me because when I got bored, the people who were watching it got bored. And it helped me with creation and spontaneity and it helped me in the YouTube world. And we got some great kind of inspiring messages saying, "Hey, thanks for putting a positive spin on this," when we started talking about it. But really behind the scenes I was leaving stoves on, I was causing a strain on my wife who already had a fairly intense mental load that she had to work through every single day.
Kim Holderness:
Yeah. So, I think it was fine and charming in the beginning of our relationship, all of the things that I fell in love with, I mean, he was so spontaneous and goofy and different and kind, and all of these things that I fell in love with were absolutely his ADHD brain. He was so creative and it was all wonderful, so that's really charming when you have all that you first start dating. And then, you add the kids and you add the business in and yeah, I mean, we were in marriage counseling and a lot of the things that we were working on, which was like, "You're not listening to me." All of those kind of communication things broke down to, "Wait, what is ADHD and what is him just being disrespectful?"
And so, we learned through that process like, "Oh, he doesn't mean to do this." It was kind of explained, it didn't excuse it but it sort of explained it. And then, we independently started a deeper dive because we assumed our son was diagnosed but we assumed he had ADHD. So, as a mom ... He's an adult, he can figure it out, my husband. But my son, I needed to figure this out because I didn't want him going on academic probation, I didn't want him on that path. And then, we were learning so much, Penn started, we started putting out videos about ADHD, about all of the good things because I think that's what was really missing. And we pitched it as a book five years ago, four years ago.
Penn Holderness:
Yeah, books go slower than videos.
Kim Holderness:
And yeah, it was four years ago, we pitched it as a book and our publisher who believed in us and loved us were like, "This is great, this is an act of service." It won't be like a New York Times bestseller or anything, but we felt like this was an act of service, we want to work on this so our son has it. We want to work on this so our son's teachers have this, very selfishly. And they believed in it enough to do a small order and then it was on the New York Times bestseller three weeks in a row, it's still doing really well. And they're like, "Holy crap, people are interested in this, we need to do more." Yeah.
Nikki Kinzer:
Well, oh, go ahead, Pete.
Pete Wright:
No, go ahead.
Nikki Kinzer:
I was just going to say it resonates in such a different way than a lot of ADHD books and oh, go ahead, Penn.
Kim Holderness:
There's so much interrupting with all these ADHD-
Nikki Kinzer:
It's okay, we got it.
Pete Wright:
It's like all we can do.
Penn Holderness:
I've met a lot of incredible doctors and therapists over the course of researching this book, but it seemed like all of their books, it was a picture of a woman and she's leaning her head against a refrigerator.
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Kim Holderness:
Yeah.
Penn Holderness:
There were so many other books-
Kim Holderness:
It's such a bummer, everything was a bummer.
Nikki Kinzer:
Everything's a bummer. Yeah. Well, and all of the people that have written them are great people and they're great researchers and they're doing wonderful things in the ADHD community.
Penn Holderness:
Yeah.
Nikki Kinzer:
What I think is different about your book and our book that I'm going to say too is that-
Kim Holderness:
No, I love your book. Yeah, it was great.
Nikki Kinzer:
It's coming from two different perspectives it's not just, "This is ADHD, here's how I handle it," your book is, "Here's my husband having ADHD, he's explaining his experiences." But I have to say Kim I love how you throw your two cents in there and then how you talk ADHD and all of that. I mean, it's such a great perspective and I think that's why it resonates and it is so ADHD-friendly to read.
Kim Holderness:
Yes.
Nikki Kinzer:
I mean, it is so easy to read.
Pete Wright:
Well Kim, for you, and I don't know how much back in time stuff you want to do, but I do think that the story of adaptation early in a relationship and coming to terms with the fact that, "I'm going to have to learn some skills just to relate to this person that I've fallen in love with is a journey in and of itself, coming to terms with the fact that there are skills that I'm going to have to figure out. And now, as not just a partner to ADHD, but a mother to a ADHD," it's not a natural set of skills. I've been watching my wife do it with me and our two ADHD kids and it's the kind of work that I find difficult to put words to. How do you describe that experience?
Nikki Kinzer:
Because they're angels, that's what they are.
Pete Wright:
Because they're angels and they're perfect.
Nikki Kinzer:
They're angels.
Pete Wright:
And they're beautiful.
Kim Holderness:
And perfect. Well, I'll say first of all, I don't come to the table with a clean neuro space. I am-
Pete Wright:
Okay, you've got a rap sheet, I get it.
Kim Holderness:
I have a rap sheet myself so I'm diagnosed anxiety and OCD. So, I very early on we had these conversations and my anxiety of learning to deal with it, now I'm on some meds, which are great. So, I think in our relationship, the fact that he has given me so much grace and because he's done that, it is easier for me to sit and understand his brain. So, it's not like, and I see him trying and that's another thing. So, I mean, he's desperately trying but if he walked through this world being like, "Well, I just can't, it's my ADHD, I can't deal with it," we wouldn't be married because I think that's so irresponsible, I'm not the only one in this marriage.
But I'm trying to, for my son's sake, because his mother by the way, amazing, 10 out of 10, angel on this earth, she did not set him up for success in actual life because she out of love, out of pure love, acted as his executive functioning. I can't do that for him and he doesn't want me to, he's a grown man. But I'm trying to do that for my son now and make sure he's, because that executive functioning delay, I'm just making sure that when I launch him into the world, he knows how to get things done. I didn't answer your question except for to say it is a lot, there are moments where it's a lot to be the person that's always having to double-check the doors and always having to double-check we have everything. And being that backstop is very stressful and it's a lot, but I know that there are moments when I'm a lot too.
Pete Wright:
Well, and that was the follow on question that I didn't know I had, which was you, anxiety, OCD energy is different than ADHD energy. And I guess, back to Penn, where do you find the balance in your relationship energetically to remain creative and focused and move things forward at the same time, living in your own skins?
Penn Holderness:
First of all, they all get along really well.
Pete Wright:
They do, good friends.
Nikki Kinzer:
They're all friends.
Kim Holderness:
They're all friends.
Penn Holderness:
Dale, if you have ADHD there is a better than 50% chance you got something else going on. I don't have anxiety disorder but I certainly experience an above-average amount of anxiety. So, I think that the balance comes in the empathy. I think Kim has been talking about that a lot, understanding that the other person is going through it as well. Really for us, we outwardly communicate what's going on in our lives when something is happening that's short-circuiting our brain. When my executive functioning is redlining, there's too much going on, I look at her and I say, "Hey, this is going to be a rough day for me," and she knows what I mean. Kim experiences anxiety, she doesn't like it when I talk about her anxiety too so I don't know how to do this.
Kim Holderness:
It's such a fun trigger. Once he talks about my anxiety it's triggering for me-
Penn Holderness:
Yeah, so will you take this because I don't want to do it?
Kim Holderness:
Yes, I don't know why.
Penn Holderness:
So, this is another thing you learn about the other person and what they-
Kim Holderness:
For whatever reason, hearing him describe it I'm like it makes me anxious. But there are days, and of course by the way, anxiety isn't bad, anxiety isn't all bad. There are moments in time where you need to feel somebody's riding your tail on the highway, that should make you anxious, right? There's a cop with lights and sirens, you should be anxious. But my particular brand is for no reason, I'll be in the grocery store and I will just, my heart starts racing, my armpits start sweating, I can't breathe and I have my shopping cart is full of stuff but I just say, "Hey Penn," and this happened, "Hey, can you come to the grocery store? I'm going to leave the cart at aisle four and it's going to be full if it's still here because I have to get out of here right now."
And he's like, "I got you babe, and do you need a ride home?" I'm like, No, I can get home but I just need to ..." And he goes, "I got you for the rest of the day, get in bed or do you need to go on a walk?" I've given him permission to tell me to go on a walk too so there's things I've given him permission for. I don't even know what the question was, but that's-
Penn Holderness:
I got it, they were asking about the balance but yeah, I wanted to get her in there and just to quickly let you know how the balance works with that. So, when I explain my feelings to her and I say, "I'm having a redlining moment," someone with anxiety, that's good positive empathy so that actually helps her and that creates a balance. And then, on the other side, when she's having trouble and I have any way that I can help her, even if it's staying out of the way or doing whatever it is, as an ADHD people pleaser who wants to be a hero, any chance I get and wants to make her happy because that is, I believe at the core, whether you realize it as a child or not, you want to make these people around you happy, that gives me joy. That's crazy that it gives me joy to be able to help her but it does. So, I think that's another part of the balance.
Pete Wright:
Yeah, I mean, just the act of finding fuel in the way you relate to each other energetically is so critical and that's magical in how you guys portray yourselves that it often doesn't feel like whether I'm looking at Christmas jammies or the rice or the pickleball, what I'm looking at are you two that I would find you two in your homes relating to each other the same way I see you on screen. And I recognize that's not true. Obviously, you contain multitudes but that coming up, figuring out how to portray that much of a sort of natural persona is kind of amazing in our space a little bit.
Kim Holderness:
Thank you.
Penn Holderness:
Thank you, and a lot of self-awareness, right?
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Nikki Kinzer:
And acceptance, I mean, that's something that I definitely found throughout the book is this just lovely level of acceptance from both of you and that is so hard when you have ADHD because it's just not a linear process at all. And especially as a couple, I work with so many clients that have difficulty when one spouse has ADHD and the other one doesn't, and having that other spouse that doesn't have ADHD have that same kind of empathy. And I'm curious from you Kim, you mentioned it before, this doesn't just come overnight, this came over I'm sure practice. But when I read this story about the beach and how you had to drive and then you saw the keys, in a lot of situations that would've been a blow on fight. How were you able to remind yourself like, "Nope, this wasn't intentional," I don't even know, what did you say to yourself?
Kim Holderness:
So, I should probably explain what the story is. So, we were getting ready to sell our house and when you have to sell a house, you basically have to get rid of everything you own and clean your house and make it look like nobody lives there. So, Penn took our kids who were much younger to his friend had a beach house, invited him to the beach so Penn took the two kids to the beach for the weekend. And all I did for 12, 14, I got a dumpster, I got donations like 12 hours of just straight hauling, cleaning, pretending like getting our house ready for sale. It was a lot of work. And I get a call Sunday at noon and he goes, "Hey, babe, so I've been looking, we're set to come back it's two-hour drive back, but I've been looking for my keys for a couple hours and I can't find my keys, just putting you an alert that you might have to drive out here, drive two hours to bring me the extra set."
And I was like, "Okay, look a little bit more," and the friends were helping, everybody's all hands on deck trying to, nobody can find the keys. So, I drive two hours there, I pull up into the driveway and I look at Penn's SUV at the time and on top of the SUV, just sparkling were his keys. So, he clearly had gotten out of the car and put his keys up there. Because he's a giant, he's so tall, so things go on top of things. So, I took the keys and I walked into the house and my kids are there and the other family's there, and I just kind of threw them at him and said, and then just did a pivot turn and got back in my car and drove back. Obviously, he was not thrilled but I have to say, I think seeing that he felt so embarrassed and he felt so ashamed.
Again, if he was like, "Well, sorry babe, can't help it it's my ADHD," I would've thrown the keys into the ocean and then I would've taken the kids and he would've had to walk back. But I saw just pure grief on his face and he had disciplined himself.
Nikki Kinzer:
Exactly.
Kim Holderness:
He's had enough shame that there was nothing I could say that was going to make it any worse.
Penn Holderness:
You did yell, "Are you bleeping kidding me?"
Kim Holderness:
I did.
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah.
Pete Wright:
I was going to say I love reading the story, but hearing you guys tell it is [inaudible 00:22:12].
Penn Holderness:
Listen, I'm very-
Kim Holderness:
I wasn't calm and nice about it.
Penn Holderness:
Right.
Kim Holderness:
[inaudible 00:22:17].
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah.
Penn Holderness:
But I understand that too, I understand why you felt that way.
Kim Holderness:
Yeah. So, I wasn't giving him a hug and being [inaudible 00:22:24], I threw the keys I said, "Are you bleeping kidding me?" Pivot turn, walk out the door. So, I didn't meet him with extreme kindness or gratitude, but I knew that in that situation if I kept talking about it, I would've lost my mind. So, I thought it best just to exit the situation knowing that he had suffered his own consequences and he was incredibly grateful that I'd made the drive and the whole thing. So, does that tell the story?
Penn Holderness:
Yeah. No, I mean, I get embarrassed and ashamed every time I hear it and we've told that story 800 times. We told it in our marriage book, we tell it anytime someone asks us online, our video about it has eight million views. I've had to tell brace myself for hearing the story again, because even hearing it makes me ashamed. Yeah.
Nikki Kinzer:
Well, and it's interesting Penn that you say that because when I brought it up I could almost see your face kind of drop a little bit. And I can totally, I love the way that Kim explains it because I think that one of the things that you guys talk about is connect, don't correct, and I think that is such a huge issue because it gave you enough time and space in the car home to take yourself away from the situation and see that, "Oh my gosh, he's going to beat himself up over this much more than anything I could say," and still does. Yeah. And it's these ADHD moments not just that, but lots of things that I see. My daughter has ADHD and she was beating herself up because she forgot that she was supposed to walk our neighbor's dog. And she's like, "I feel so horrible, I can't believe I forgot this," and trying to work through that with her and that shame, which-
Pete Wright:
The dog has lived.
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah. Oh, yeah, they were good. Great. And we put the alarm on.
Pete Wright:
The dogs are fine, yeah.
Nikki Kinzer:
We put the alarm on, we have the sticky note, we have every reminder she's doing it today at noon it's going to happen.
Pete Wright:
Okay.
Kim Holderness:
Well, I will also say that, and I think you mentioned in your book when we talk about it and ours, and this is somebody who's like a non-ADHDer that I had to, the emotional dysregulation part of it so the shame spiral. I did not even realize I think until my, because he's an adult human so he can manage his emotions better, although he feels shame very deeply, he can mask it better. But seeing my son sort of spiral and that shame it is outsized, I think is the reaction to someone else who forgot to walk the dogs. Of course, they would be disappointed and a shame, but there is a recovery that happens faster in a non-ADHD brain but the ADHD brain continues and then they make it, the shame spiral is real.
Nikki Kinzer:
Oh, yeah.
Kim Holderness:
So, I think that's why we offer, I've had to learn this and it's not my natural instinct because I'm a recovering perfectionist, but to offer the connection and not the immediate like, "How could you, how could you forget to walk the dogs?" And like gosh, that's so hard. And then, when the temperature cools then you think, "Okay, we have alarm set, we have sticky notes," then you get into it and it just, yeah.
Pete Wright:
It's a funny thing though, so I'm sitting here watching the same thing that Nikki is, and I too see Penn go into compartmentalization mode, which I feel like I know so well. And my response as is the response to people in the chatroom is one of like ADHD commiserative laughing, right? Because we've so felt it, we've so been there. And my God, if I had a dime for every one of those stories that we could tell, and so my instinct is and I'm not going to do it but I'll talk about it, the meta apology that I want to offer is, "Oh my God, I'm sorry for laughing." But at some level I also know you understand what it's like to feel so strongly that all you can do is smile and chuckle. There's nothing left because it's in the bones.
Penn Holderness:
Yeah. I mean, it happens to me every time. It's amplified when it happens to me at like a book signing and there are 100 women who get what Kim is saying and they need to laugh. They need to laugh, they need to look at me and laugh and say, "You moron," because it's going to make them feel like they're not alone because they go through this every day and they go through it in a much more intense way than we do. So, I don't mind that happening. But the other thing is happening is my ADHD fishbowl brain is activating, which is a big part of what we talk about in the book.
Our emotions are like the water in a fishbowl, and we get overwhelmed really easily. And I'm 49 years old and I still get overwhelmed every time that happens to me at a book signing and I hear everyone laughing at me. I know that they need it but also when something bad happens to you as an ADHD person, you can't compartmentalize that from the rest of what's going on, the water in the fishbowl turns red.
Pete Wright:
Yes.
Penn Holderness:
Entirely red, not just a little bit of red but it's a homogenous substance and it all turns red at the same time. And then, you need something to bring you out of it and when you do, the color changes back to clear and you're fine. So, I think about that meta, if you will, every single time it happens. I also, I need to feel that way because that's what motivates me to work hard to not let that happen again. By the way, when that happened, it was 10 years ago, it was before we'd done any research in the book. It was really when we were, I mean, at that point we just thought it was maybe a lack of respect or a marriage issue, and so it was nice to understand why that happens. Anyway-
Pete Wright:
Suddenly there are words to define it, right?
Kim Holderness:
Yeah. We learned, and God when we learned this, it explains so much. We write about the book, I'm forgetting the study, I'm forgetting the name of the person who did the study, but just how ADHD the working memory. So, I can walk into the house, hang up my keys, go get a drink of water, take off, I can do all those things, Penn walks into the house and he's hungry. And so, he immediately goes to the refrigerator but he doesn't realize 'cause he's thinking refrigerator, will open the refrigerator see his keys in there because he doesn't, these keys just don't even exist, it doesn't even enter the same way it does mine. So, once I learned all that I'm like, "Of course he didn't realize he put his keys there because he was getting two young kids, at the time they were seven and four out of car seats and booster seats and getting their bags and putting on sunscreen and he just put it up there so it didn't even occur to him that his keys would be there. So yeah.
And just understanding that has allowed me to offer a lot more empathy and he does the work, you hear him, he does the work. Again, I was married and we do sadly hear at a lot of these book signings, there are wives there because their husband has raging ADHD, refuses to get a diagnosis and doesn't think there's anything wrong. And they're like, "What do I do? If my husband is refusing to put the system in place or refusing to get a diagnosis and he's..." I'm like, "I don't know. I don't know how to, we're not doctors." But because I have a partner who's doing so much work, it makes it, that's why we're able to keep doing what [inaudible 00:29:56].
Nikki Kinzer:
And that's so important. And because it is, you guys mentioned this and we've heard it before, it's an explanation but it's not an excuse. But something you said in the book that really resonated and I highlighted and I wanted to bring up is you say it's one of the five ADHD misconceptions of ADHD and that ADHD behaviors are a choice, which is a misconception, right? That's so wrong. And just like a runny nose and itchy eyes or symptoms of a pollen allergy, leaning back in your chair, interrupting or spacing out are symptoms of ADHD. Oh my gosh, I wish that message was so loud and clear 'cause I don't think people get that.
Pete Wright:
I'm curious to this point, I've been thinking about the evolution of the sociological kind of approach to ADHD because, and I was just on another podcast and had this awakening. We were guests on another show and I've been thinking about this related to you guys since then. When I was a kid, ADHD was a thing that nobody could handle. And the only way it manifested was in the seventh grade boy whose handwriting was terrible, who was completely hyperactive, it was the stereotype of ADHD. And that taught everyone, kids and parents, that ADHD was a verboten, like ADHD was a thing we'd hide from. And here we are now for some decades later, and I'm curious how that baggage has impacted you guys, what you've had to feel like you've shed and what you still go to the mat to fight for. And what are the messages, the sort of implicit messages that you feel like we're still working against?
Penn Holderness:
Let's start with this. ADHD is diagnosed by its most superficial symptoms, the easiest, lowest hanging fruit to pick. So, a couple of things happen there. When it's the seventh grader who won't sit still and the person who won't pay attention, those are fairly superficial things in the life of an ADHD person. They're obviously inconveniencing a lot of teachers and a lot of parents, understandable, because we can be a lot when we're kids and our executive functioning hasn't developed anyway, so you put that on top of it. So, another message that happens, we just talked about those superficial symptoms, women don't have the same superficial symptoms, their symptoms are hidden. They are taught and expected by society to internalize their difficulties. And for that reason, they're three times less likely to be diagnosed or at least that's the most recent study. The hope is that'll change. So, then they get older and they become parents and they're expected in this society to be the head of a household and deal with fricking signup genius, which is like an ADHD-
Pete Wright:
Stop it, don't even, it's too triggering.
Penn Holderness:
And so, the shame has got to be pretty intense for them, we've talked about shame a ton. So, I mean, I think the messaging that I want to shed, number one is, you're looking at symptoms that are superficial. Number two, you're treating it like a medical model. What's wrong? What's bugging people around you? Here's some medicine. I understand that that's how you should treat a cold, that's how you should treat the flu, but for a brain variance like ADHD, it's probably a good idea to look at the entire picture, right?
Pete Wright:
Because otherwise it's diagnostically punitive.
Penn Holderness:
Yes, exactly. And the big picture is I'm successful because of my ADHD, I've overcome some of the shortcomings in my executive functioning and my emotional regulation, but it is a unique type of brain variant that leads to immense innovation and creativity. And no doctor ever tells any kid that when they get diagnosed. So, you get stuck with the easiest thing to talk about, which is, "Well, my husband does this. Well, my son does this. This is really tough." And you don't really, we even try this at book signings, we try to push toward like, "Here's the creative stuff, here's what I've done, here's what everyone's done." And it always comes back to, "I am so exhausted, I'm so frustrated," and I understand that but that is the toughest nut to crack. It's why we need messaging like your book and ours that says, "Hey, this isn't all bad," and that to me is the most important messaging. And also just to let people know that they're not alone and they're not broken.
Kim Holderness:
And I will say we were prepared for a little and we got some very, very honest and valid feedback they're like middle finger, "How dare you say ADHD is Awesome, it's not awesome it sucks." Absolutely, absolutely. So, on the first page, we talk about the actual definition of awesome, which means invokes fear and overwhelming. So, in the true definition of ADHD, it's both of those things. It's wonderful, full of all but also can scare the crap out of you. So, we got a little of that and it was very valid. And we spent the first third of the book talking about how awful it is, but don't you get all of the awful crap every day? We all know the awful crap. We all know the awful, we all know it. So, if you were also thrown a little bit of when you were diagnosed or your kid was diagnosed they were also told, "But you have an advantage, your brain will solve problems unlike anybody else in your class. Your brain is more ..."
I mean, there's science to back this stuff up so I think there's an advantage to these brains that ADHD has a marketing problem. And like you were saying, those hyperactive you initially, the quote about the misconceptions. Yeah, I mean, it is hard for a teacher to deal with the kid who needs to move but that's how they're emotionally regulating in a lot of cases. I even fidget a ton, but fidgeting helps, especially children emotionally regulate. So, just [inaudible 00:36:05] them for fidgeting in their chair and leaning back in their seat, that's just, teachers need to understand that they need to do that to concentrate.
Pete Wright:
The title is so bold and I'll tell you, I'm one of those that is, I found it a while, maybe it's because we've been podcasting so long that I just started to get really antagonistic toward the trope ADHD is a superpower.
Kim Holderness:
Yeah.
Pete Wright:
And because it's like an unmetered weapon, sometimes it's great but intermittent reinforcement sucks. Let's just be honest about that. And so, I'm sitting here looking at ADHD is Awesome, and I know what awesome means and I totally get it and you talk about it in the book so thoroughly and so clearly that I get it. And yet, the design of the book is so fun that it makes me, the first thing I think is, "How did they come to the decision to use that title? What is the behind the scenes conversation to get that title picked and approved?"
Kim Holderness:
Yeah, it was a struggle.
Penn Holderness:
Yeah. I was pretty hardcore on wanting to use the title. I'll be honest with you, even if it didn't have two meanings, which it does, it means awesome means worthy of praise and admiration and it also means bleeping terrifying.
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Penn Holderness:
It is both things. And ADHD has a lot of dichotomies within it so that was convenient.
Pete Wright:
But it also doesn't mean bad.
Penn Holderness:
I want this book to be like, "Hey, if you just want to say this sucks and there's nothing I can do about it, go read another book. Go read another book if ADHD sucks and it's all bad."
Kim Holderness:
And those books exist.
Penn Holderness:
Oh my God, there's so many of those books that exist.
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Penn Holderness:
And so, in the end, I think we braced ourselves for what might happen afterwards. And I'll be honest, it's been minimal but it has been fervent and intense, the opposition about it. I worry that sometimes those who have said things about it may not have finished the book or even opened the cover.
Kim Holderness:
Yeah. I don't think they even ... Yeah, there's no room for new, this all honestly came out when we were doing all the pre-sale stuff, totally valid, totally. And I love what you're saying about like, "ADHD is a superpower," you're like, "But my kid just went to school with no shoes on for the third time this week," like, "No, it's not." It's both.
Penn Holderness:
I don't use the word superpower like you Pete, I don't use it a lot. I do find it interesting all the dichotomies though. When we get really obsessed on something and we can't really pay attention to anyone else, we call it a fixation. When we do the same thing, but it's productive, we call it hyperfocus.
Pete Wright:
Right.
Nikki Kinzer:
It's so true.
Pete Wright:
It's the same thing and that's like when I can go, I know there are costs to my productivity, I know when I'm in the zone, those costs might be social wellbeing, friends and family connection, they might be dietary, I might just not eat for a day. But I also know that that is an injected power that allows me to create things where my job producing podcasts is hand to glove with my neurological identity. And that is, I'll agree, that is a superpower. And for so many years, my pre-diagnosis and post, the other stuff has sucked so bad, it's such a high calorie burn that I feel like I've been conditioned sort of the other way. I feel like it's almost like, maybe I'll get to where you are, Penn. I just haven't turned that corner yet but man, once you open the book and realize what you're really talking about, it sheds so much of the baggage that I brought to reading the book. And I read ADHD books and I brought baggage to your book.
Nikki Kinzer:
You wrote one.
Pete Wright:
And I wrote one. And so, I mean-
Nikki Kinzer:
Well, and you explain it with the both and approach, right? I mean, you say that right at the get-go. And so, I agree. I think that people that haven't read it and are commenting on it really, it's not fair.
Kim Holderness:
But I get it because we've heard, we get so many emails every single day and we've met face-to-face these families. And I can see the tears in their eyes and to be there and blindly say like, "This is an advantage, it's a superpower," that is ignorant and hurtful and harmful. But it's both.
Penn Holderness:
Yeah.
Nikki Kinzer:
It's both.
Kim Holderness:
Yeah, both-
Penn Holderness:
A buddy of mine who he thinks he has ADHD, he read my book thought it was great, he's like one of my smartest friends. He's like, "Maybe we should use the word force multiplier," which is something that they use in private equity, I guess. It's like fancy money.
Pete Wright:
Yep, so gross.
Kim Holderness:
We don't know anything.
Penn Holderness:
He does money and makes more money.
Kim Holderness:
He makes a lot of money.
Nikki Kinzer:
Okay.
Kim Holderness:
I like his job.
Penn Holderness:
Force multiplier?
Kim Holderness:
What does that mean?
Penn Holderness:
It means that you-
Kim Holderness:
Anything with money I'm like, "I don't know what it means either."
Penn Holderness:
It means that your efficiency goes to 2x or 3x [inaudible 00:41:16], it's a force multiplier, whereas getting up in the morning and getting fed and putting your shoes on, that would be a forced detractor or whatever the opposite of a force multiplier is. But you've got to edit your environment and get in the right situation and the right productive space for that to become a force multiplier. And that is the Sisyphean task of pushing that we've got to work on all of us.
Pete Wright:
Yeah. Well, and I toss around intermittent reinforcement all the time but because the challenge of knowing that one day I can feel so productive and create some amazing things, and then the next day I have the same set of things on my plate and I can't do any of them. That inconsistency that comes with ADHD is what makes it terrifying, to use the awesome term, that's what makes it terrifying.
Nikki Kinzer:
Terrifying but then I think there's also a level of when you are aware of that and you can start to embrace it and really start to accept that that's okay, that one day is going to be really great and the next day I am going to be in bed. That's okay. We have to normalize that too that that's just part of your ADHD.
Kim Holderness:
And I would say even for, I recognize that in myself, so we have the best jobs in the world. We get to make funny, goofy videos and write books and blog posts, I mean, we have the best job. But I do know, we usually shoot videos on Tuesdays, if we're shooting all day on a Tuesday, Wednesday, we arrange to, we're here, we're sitting here with you. We have a podcast interview we're doing later, it is something that I don't have like that go adrenaline all day because I know that I'm not going to be able to create a ton. Does that make sense?
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah, absolutely.
Kim Holderness:
But we had to learn that about each other. And for him, editing is sort of like that. He can hyperfocus and that sort, he gets in the zone. So, if we shoot on Tuesday he usually edits all day and that's like a focus thing for him.
Penn Holderness:
I almost missed this podcast.
Nikki Kinzer:
Because you were editing?
Penn Holderness:
Yeah, and it was a project that I was kind of excited about. And I was like, "You know what? I'll stop with 30 minutes left so it'll give me plenty of time." And Kim comes up, "I haven't showered, I've gone to the gym I had swamp ass." I was like, still not done anything for myself. And she's like, "You know we have this in nine minutes," she said it with a lot of grace and understanding.
Kim Holderness:
I was like, "I'll get the lights on and I'll get the computer ready," and he goes, "Oh my God." So, he had this time blindness.
Penn Holderness:
Because I was editing.
Kim Holderness:
But that to him is a sort of a neutral brain state so he's not getting, he enjoys it. And so, we call it hyperfocus but if he was doing Legos or something, then we'd call it fixation, yeah.
Pete Wright:
But it's also a totally even keel calorie burn. Once you get into the zone of editing a project, it's just like there's a constant flow of attention and energy and everything just works, even when it's hard, it's just kind of works. I totally get it. Can I ask some questions about creative process?
Penn Holderness:
Yeah.
Pete Wright:
These are kinds of things that just light me up. So, as we get towards wrapping up, you're managing a million channels and a container ship full of content and frankly, it looks about his ADHD and editorial calendar as I could possibly imagine. Can you tell us a little bit about how a new idea gets nurtured from idea through the production process and what does it take to say no?
Penn Holderness:
Yeah. So, that's interesting. From the ADHD perspective, let's start with this, your inner CEO, the person who's in charge of saying yes and no, he just says yes.
Nikki Kinzer:
To everything, yeah.
Pete Wright:
That's all he's got?
Penn Holderness:
Right. And so, that doesn't mean I say yes to every idea that I see, it means that when I'm trying to find ideas, they all just come swarming at me at an infinite pace a lot of times when someone else is trying to talk to me. And so, for us, we've actually developed I think a relationship between the two of us that has maximized each of our own neurodiversities. And it starts general. I'm going to give you, this is a generalization that happens maybe 60% of the time, and probably 40% of the time it comes in another way. But most of the time, majority of the time, Kim's really good at flying 30,000 feet above our life and saying, "Have you ever noticed it blank?"
Kim Holderness:
Yeah. I love walking through life, looking at the world asking, "Is this funny?" And I'll give you an example. So, in our house we had a tower of just pretty good boxes. So, I do a lot of online shopping and I kind of kick them outside and Penn has to either burn them or break them down and recycle them. And it's just like this tower but I'm like, "Ooh, do I want to get rid of that box, it's a pretty good box?" And so, I just had this tower of boxes and then I start wondering I'm like, "Does everybody have a box tower in their garage or does everybody have a pretty good box somewhere that they just refuse to get rid of?" And so, I go up to Penn and I said, "Hey, is there a sketch? Is there a song? Is there something about the boxes I refuse to get rid of but also refuse to break down but they just sit there?"
Penn Holderness:
And that's such a great cue for me because all I have is I have this vision of my wife saying, "I can't throw this away, this is a pretty good box." And then, can I just give an example that Marcy Caldwell gave me? I don't know if you guys have met her-
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah.
Pete Wright:
She's been on the show.
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah, she's great.
Pete Wright:
We love her.
Penn Holderness:
Marcy talks about the ADHD brain's ability to process stimulus as either being at a VIP party with a bouncer that keeps all of the superfluous stuff out and only lets in the important stuff. That's a non-ADHD brain. And in normal life, that's great, you're able to get stuff done without being distracted. And the ADHD brain is more like Coachella. It's an open air concert, you don't need tickets, everybody gets in. You feel the wind, you feel the rain, you feel the air, you feel all of it simultaneously coming from you at a million directions. There's 10,000 people there and you can feel and hear them all, right? That sucks when you're trying to get out the door in the morning. But when she comes to me with this idea with, "Hey, that's a pretty good box." I hear music, I see comedic sketches, I hear specific notes, I hear choruses in my head and they all come rushing to me because she's given me something very simple to focus on.
Kim Holderness:
So, he went upstairs so I, let's say that was 10 AM on a Tuesday and I said, "Is there something with this box pile? I refuse to get rid of them. I don't want to break them down but I don't know, we might use them." So, he went upstairs to where we're sitting now. If I turn the camera, there's a keyboard and all this music stuff. And in 30 minutes I get a file and he's like, "What about this?" And it's a song, it sounded like a power ballad about it's a pretty good box. And he's like, "And I'm imagining you kind of dancing with a box and I'll be playing the keyboard behind you." And so, I was like, "No notes, this is amazing." And then we do have, I would also say we have two people that work with us full time, Anne Marie and Sam, and they came over, we shoot, they help edit, they help ideate, they also come to the table with ideas and things like that. And so, it's a pretty collaborative thing. And then, we put it on the internet the next day.
Nikki Kinzer:
Wow.
Pete Wright:
I'm sorry, wait a minute, wait a minute. If there was a record scratch or cars breaking, you did say the next day-
Penn Holderness:
Usually-
Pete Wright:
You shoot and then next day.
Kim Holderness:
I would say some of our more popular things we've shot it, we've come up with the idea at 10, we shoot it at noon, we edit, posted everything at four. We're from the land of local news when that's-
Pete Wright:
Yeah, right.
Kim Holderness:
And we're also not that precious about it because we did one. Okay. So, I said to him, "Hey, listen, there's going to be," was it a solar eclipse? Yeah, it was a solar eclipse. "There's a solar eclipse today, everybody's talking about it but what they're talking about is how nobody can see it because it's really cloudy."
Penn Holderness:
It's like 7:45 in the morning.
Kim Holderness:
Yeah. And so, my two ADHDers on the way, he has to take my son to school they're running late and he goes, "Hey, give me a frying pan," and he's like, "I'm going to shoot something real quick." My son's yelling at him 'cause he's like, "No, dad, I'm late." They pull over and my son, you hear his voice behind it. And so, Penn's like and I think it's on our Instagram it's like he's reenacting a solar eclipse for those that aren't in the path of totality, meaning everybody. He's like, "This is what it's going to look like," and he did this and then the frying pan stops in front of the sun and it does this. And so, that's what a solar eclipse looks like. And this is just a weird coincidence. We had him playing total eclipse of the heart on the recorder already.
Penn Holderness:
From like two years ago.
Kim Holderness:
From two years ago.
Pete Wright:
Oh.
Kim Holderness:
So, it was like this disastrous total eclipse of the heart with the recorder and we uploaded it. So, we shot at 7:45, we sent the files over to Sam because he had to run them to school. So, Sam's editing it and puts it with the music and it was like 8:15, she was to post it and she misspells reenactment.
Nikki Kinzer:
Oh.
Kim Holderness:
And she's like, so eclipse reenactment and she hit post and I go on five minutes later and it has a thousand comments or something already. And I'm like, "I want to take this down because it has a misspelling that I can't not see."
Penn Holderness:
And fun fact.
Kim Holderness:
We did not take it down.
Penn Holderness:
No, that's fun fact one. Fun fact two, someone told us that there's creators who purposefully misspell stuff so that they get more comments. No one really commented on that-
Kim Holderness:
Nobody commented but I see it every time and I kind of wince 'cause there's a misspelling.
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah.
Penn Holderness:
But that speed is really important when it comes to social media because the reason why it got 20 million views, so it got a ridiculous, I think it got a ton of views. And the biggest reason why I wasn't 'cause it was super creative it was because we were able to react to something that was going on real time. And it had at least enough production like the recorder sound, that it felt like something we had planned beforehand so it almost looked like we were predicting this. But really what we were seeing was just a bunch of people who were going to be pissed off that they can't see it 'cause it was a really cloudy day in America.
Pete Wright:
That's it. I love that perspective, that's such a pivot. And I know everything we do is on a two-week lead time for scheduling and editing and all of that stuff and it's a dramatically different mindset.
Kim Holderness:
[inaudible 00:52:12] are different. Podcasts, we work ... We're a week or two ahead on our podcast but podcasts, there's room for nuance and there's long conversations so they're different.
Penn Holderness:
And then, there's a book.
Kim Holderness:
Yeah.
Nikki Kinzer:
Oh my God.
Penn Holderness:
Let's do that, Pete.
Pete Wright:
So, let's acknowledge that you wrote ADHD is Awesome and we wrote Unapologetically ADHD and for the last week, all I can say is that there's one book called Unapologetically Awesome and that's the new [inaudible 00:52:40], that's in my head.
Kim Holderness:
I love that book.
Pete Wright:
I love it, that is a great book right there.
Kim Holderness:
Unapologetically Awesome.
Pete Wright:
I would read the hell out of that book for narcissists everywhere.
Penn Holderness:
That should be the title of this thing.
Pete Wright:
You just won the podcast, absolutely. So, when you talk about the production process on the book, how did you end up collaborating? And again, this goes into all the things we've talked about, matching energies, matching time and coming within the local news aesthet when you are working on something with such a long lead time.
Penn Holderness:
Yeah. So, micro deadlines, that was the most important thing to me. It was never, "You've got to finish chapter or this bit in a month," it's, "You have to finish this paragraph in a day." They had to be short micro deadlines. I'm also going to give credit and she hates when I give it to her, to Becky Cole, who was our editor, who also acted a little bit as an organizer in this book for me. She was an editor/organizer and I think that we selected her because she has that skillset. And then, the other part that was great was Kim and the rest of our team made a decision very early on that it was going to have this sort of ADHD energy, so that allowed me to go on just freaking tangents from time to time and then they were supported graphically. Because you can't just go on a tangent in a black and white book. You know what I mean? I kept putting stuff on Post-it notes as I was thinking about it and someone was like ...
Kim Holderness:
"Let's put the Post-it notes in."
Penn Holderness:
"Let's put the Post-it notes in," so there's Post-it notes all over the book.
Kim Holderness:
Yeah, and we're like, "Let your mind wander and find, if you mention a stat and it reminds you of something else, let your mind wander on that."
Penn Holderness:
Go, yeah.
Nikki Kinzer:
Love it.
Kim Holderness:
And it's kind of a funny visionary break. And so, we just knew deeply that people with ADHD would need this book but how do you get people with ADHD to read a book?
Nikki Kinzer:
Right.
Pete Wright:
Right.
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah.
Pete Wright:
It's easy to get people with ADHD to buy a book.
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah.
Kim Holderness:
To buy a book, the whole lot of them have been sold but how many of you guys are reading it? So, that was something we wanted to make sure they're actually reading it.
Pete Wright:
That's why our book is just full of misspellings, we just want to make sure that people are reading it.
Kim Holderness:
Honestly, great, good on you. And honestly, it's even extra credit for finding them.
Penn Holderness:
You know one of the most commonly misspelled words?
Kim Holderness:
It's misspell.
Penn Holderness:
Yeah.
Nikki Kinzer:
Oh, really? Interesting.
Penn Holderness:
Yeah.
Nikki Kinzer:
Well, I have to tell you, I did not know why men have nipples until I read your book.
Penn Holderness:
Oh yeah, because the Y chromosome doesn't present itself until the fifth or sixth week.
Nikki Kinzer:
Did not know that.
Penn Holderness:
I'm glad you learned that.
Kim Holderness:
This is why [inaudible 00:55:17] because he'll say even to our kids, we'll be watching something and be like, "Do you know that the ..." He has a lot of random facts, but then I know when he's lying because a lot of times he'll make up things that he'll lie about them just to be funny so that's yeah.
Penn Holderness:
I'll tell you eventually when I'm-
Pete Wright:
Eventually.
Kim Holderness:
Yeah.
Nikki Kinzer:
That's great. Oh my gosh.
Pete Wright:
I also learned from your Jason Alexander appearance that Penn is hot naked, so that is out there too now. Stunning on you man, way to keep it tight.
Kim Holderness:
You know that was a very fun day because the first five minutes of that podcast were just the host of that podcast including Jason Alexander, just complimenting my husband on how hot he is. [inaudible 00:55:55], he's amazing. I agree, guys."
Penn Holderness:
Also, the really interesting part about that day, so it was in Howie Mandel studio, and I don't know if you've seen Disruptors or any of these other great docs, like how we may know it's openly ADHD?
Pete Wright:
Oh, yes.
Penn Holderness:
And he was so ADHD he had no idea that we were in there doing a podcast about ADHD.
Kim Holderness:
I think because he was wearing his black, he looks like a tech billionaire in the shirt.
Penn Holderness:
This is my tech billionaire shirt.
Kim Holderness:
Yeah, Howie Mandel thought we were investors in something I was like, "Oh my gosh."
Penn Holderness:
So, he was talking to us about his hologram thing and I was like, "Oh really? Tell me more," I was interested.
Kim Holderness:
It was interesting but he thinks we're buying them.
Pete Wright:
Oh my god.
Penn Holderness:
If a 50-year-old dude wears a black fitted T-shirt and blue jeans, people assume that he's worth $12 billion.
Kim Holderness:
And we're not.
Penn Holderness:
We're not.
Pete Wright:
That's a new aesthetic, right? Fashion it's like, what is it called? It's like tech core or something? It's like you wearing being a bazillionaire and wearing clothes that do not communicate that, yeah. So, we're all striving for polos and we have been since I was 10. This is amazing you guys.
Nikki Kinzer:
Thank you so much.
Pete Wright:
And thank you for hanging out with us, we so so appreciate your time. I know, I'm sure by now you have done 1.75 million podcast guest appearances. They are all astounding and we just love you for doing it. Thanks for your contributions.
Kim Holderness:
Well, thank you.
Penn Holderness:
Yeah. This was one of my favorites, honestly. This had a good flow to it.
Nikki Kinzer:
Thank you.
Pete Wright:
Oh, thank you so much, we're honored. Honored to be just sharing an orbit and we will see you live and in person in Anaheim.
Penn Holderness:
You guys are going to Anaheim?
Nikki Kinzer:
Yes, we are.
Pete Wright:
Oh, yes.
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah.
Kim Holderness:
[inaudible 00:57:37] Penn Holderness because-
Pete Wright:
You're not going?
Kim Holderness:
I'm not going because we have a senior and we have a ninth grader and they are very athletic.
Pete Wright:
Oh, yeah.
Kim Holderness:
Sports things happening and really he's the show.
Kim Holderness:
I might get like cutout picture of you or something-
Kim Holderness:
Yeah, you should.
Nikki Kinzer:
Just to have her come along.
Pete Wright:
You don't have to do much.
Kim Holderness:
Yeah. So, Penn's in a solo mission.
Pete Wright:
You know what, I will put a Kim mask on and I'll just be on stage on my knees.
Kim Holderness:
Yes.
Pete Wright:
And I won't even say anything, you can just talk at me.
Penn Holderness:
Because she's short.
Kim Holderness:
Yes.
Pete Wright:
I'm also fairly tall so I'm just saying this is an objective fact, it's not a judgment.
Kim Holderness:
Or anything weird.
[inaudible 00:58:20].
Penn Holderness:
I just wanted everyone listening to know that I got that.
Pete Wright:
No, this is going to be really interesting to see if this bit makes it in the final podcast. We'll see how-
Kim Holderness:
Pete's just got a little weird.
Nikki Kinzer:
He's a little weird.
Well, before we wrap, I'm going to take it back to the serious side and I just want to say thank you.
Pete Wright:
I wish you luck.
Nikki Kinzer:
To both of you. No, because I started following you when you did the Christmas jammies and you bring so much joy to the world and I think because we are in the same Gen X era, I totally relate to you. I relate to Kim with her anxiety, my husband has ADHD, I get it, my daughter does. So, I relate to you and I'm sure as many, many people in the world do. But what I also want to say is it takes a lot of courage and vulnerability to say, "I have ADHD and I want to spread this message and I want to let people know that you're not broken, you're not alone." And to have the platform that you have to spread that message, it's so meaningful I think for the people that are watching you.
And just want to say thank you for being a part of this community and embracing it because you are, I mean, just in the last year with your book, I know you had that first video out a while ago, but with the book, you're speaking at the ADHD Conference, I'm seeing you on podcasts, I'm seeing you on ADDitude. You're out there and making a presence and I just want to say thank you. I think it's great.
Penn Holderness:
Well, thank you. And I have started writing that speech for Anaheim like six times and I know what it's going to be about, but I got to get to work on that.
Kim Holderness:
Yeah, 'cause normally we speak together and we have a keynote that is together, so when it's just him it'll be very interesting. You guys have to send me some-
Nikki Kinzer:
Some video.
Kim Holderness:
Yeah.
Penn Holderness:
This is sort of inside baseball, but I have no problem writing speeches ever, but I've never done it in front of a ton of doctors. They don't need to know. Our usual audience are moms, kids, people who need to learn more about ADHD, these guys don't need to know that. They need to know what's happened to us as lab rats. What have we seen when we've gone out in the world and what empirical evidence can we bring them about how this reframe is affecting people in a positive way, right? So, I know I'm going to write about that but it's new.
Kim Holderness:
It'll be great.
Penn Holderness:
And I'm terrified. The questions are going to be like, "What about the mandibular cortex?" And I'm like, "I don't freaking know. I interviewed people so that I could quote them, I don't need"-
Kim Holderness:
I don't need to know that.
Penn Holderness:
Exactly.
Kim Holderness:
I think we say 47 times in our book, "We are not doctors, we're not doctors."
Penn Holderness:
Yeah, we're lab rats.
Kim Holderness:
We're lab rats, yeah.
Nikki Kinzer:
Love it.
Kim Holderness:
In one, in a chorus, in Anaheim, you'll have people say, "We know you're not a doctor."
Penn Holderness:
I'm going to have them start with that, like I'm going to ask them, "Repeat after me."
Kim Holderness:
Can I make you a T-shirt that says, "I am not a doctor."
Penn Holderness:
I'm not a doctor.
Pete Wright:
As long as it's a black T-shirt, you're in good shape.
Penn Holderness:
With black lettering.
Pete Wright:
Yes.
Nikki Kinzer:
We're perfect. All right, thank you so much for being here you guys.
Kim Holderness:
[inaudible 01:01:31].
Pete Wright:
Okay. This has been awesome. I mean, obviously ADHD is Awesome, it's in bookstores everywhere. It's on all of the places. Do you want to pitch anything else? What is the next brilliant idea that's going to come out of your work week this week that we can plug people to check out?
Penn Holderness:
Well, I think there's going to be another ADHD book, at least a children's one, and then potentially one on top of that that I can't tell you about. But the process hasn't ended, the ability to try to create content off of the internet when it comes to this.
Kim Holderness:
Yeah, great. So, we're working on a kid's tweens book because a lot of people online are like, "Yeah, my kid's trying to read this but he's 12." And so yeah, it's a little dense for that so we're working on that.
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah.
Penn Holderness:
But mostly I'll spend the next month stressing about what I'm going to say in Anaheim.
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah.
Pete Wright:
Yeah. Perfect as it should be.
Nikki Kinzer:
I get that.
Pete Wright:
Well, this is amazing. Thank you for being here, we sure appreciate it. Thank you everyone for downloading and listening to this show, we appreciate your time and your attention. Don't forget if you have something to contribute to the conversation, we're heading over to the Show Talk channel over in Discord, you can join us right there by becoming a supporting member at the deluxe level. On behalf of Nikki Kinzer and Penn and Kim Holderness, I'm Pete Wright, and we'll see you back here next week right here on Taking Control: The ADHD Podcast.
