ADHD & Empathy with Dr. Tamara Rosier

Mar 7

In this week's episode of The ADHD Podcast, hosts Pete Wright and Nikki Kinzer explore the nuances of empathy for those with ADHD. Their guest, Dr. Tamara Rosier, recently presented on "The Unexpected Downside of Empathy" at the 2023 International ADHD Conference. Dr. Rosier, founder of the ADHD Center of West Michigan, explains that while empathy is often seen as a virtue, ADHDers may experience it in a more complicated way.

Dr. Rosier outlines three main types of empathy: emotional, cognitive, and compassionate. Typically, employing all three types leads to well-regulated empathy. However, she notes that ADHDers frequently operate at extremes, either overly empathetic or non-empathetic. This imbalance leaves them vulnerable to several "downsides" of empathy.

First, ADHDers may experience misplaced empathy, making excuses for other's inappropriate behavior. Second, getting stuck in emotional empathy can lead to empathetic distress and fatigue from taking on too many others' burdens. Dr. Rosier hypothesizes this stems from the ADHDer's desire to avoid rejection sensitivity.

Third, ADHDers may underfunction by shutting down empathetically. Fourth, they may overfunction by overcompensating for other's lack of empathy. Finally, manipulative people can exploit the ADHDer's emotional empathy to gaslight without triggering their cognitive empathy.

ADHD wiring leads to a complicated relationship with empathy. Our great thanks to Dr. Rosier for sharing her insights this week!

Links & Notes

Pete Wright:
Hello everybody, and welcome to Taking Control: The ADHD Podcast on True Story FM. I'm Pete Wright, and I'm here with Nikki Kinzer.

Nikki Kinzer:
Hello everyone. Hello, Pete Wright.

Pete Wright:
Oh, hi, Nikki. How are you?

Nikki Kinzer:
I'm good. How are you, Pete?

Pete Wright:
You say that loaded. You're outing me is being under the weather. That's what is happening right now.

Nikki Kinzer:
I'm sorry.

Pete Wright:
You're telling the world that I'm a little bit sick and that I already wrote begging you to be loud and-

Nikki Kinzer:
Enthusiastic.

Pete Wright:
... Up front on the show today. I have to lean on you.

Nikki Kinzer:
Oh, I got your back.

Pete Wright:
We've got a great conversation lined up, and I didn't want to miss it. I didn't want to miss it, especially after our conversation last week on gaslighting, which was, I think, a really useful conversation.
So today we're talking about empathy and ADHD, and we have a fantastic guest to help us. And so we're going to talk about that guest and to that guest momentarily.
But before we do that, head over to takecontroladhd.com to get to know us a little bit better. You can listen to the show right there on the website or subscribe to the mailing list right there on the homepage, and you'll get an email with the latest episode each week. You can connect with us on Facebook or Instagram or Pinterest at Take Control ADHD. But to really connect with us, jump into the ADHD Discord community. It's super easy to jump into the general chat channels. Just visit takecontroladhd.com/discord and you will be whisked over to the general invitation and login.
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Dr. Tamara Rosier has been a college administrator, a professor, a leadership consultant, a high school teacher, a business owner, and an ADHD coach. She's the founder of the ADHD Center of West Michigan, an author of Your Brain's Not Broken. Last week, we explored the concept of gaslighting and how it can have an effect on those of us with ADHD. This week, Tamara's going to help us understand ADHD and empathy and how it might actually make us an easier target for gaslighting by others. Tamara, welcome to the ADHD podcast.

Tamara Rosier:
Hey, thanks for having me back. I love talking with you guys.

Nikki Kinzer:
Oh, thank you. Well, welcome.

Tamara Rosier:
And Pete, I'm joining you.

Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah.

Tamara Rosier:
I'm not fully admitting that I'm sick, even though I just had an on-camera sneezing attack. And so I'm just going to be fast with that mute button if I need to today.

Nikki Kinzer:
That's right.

Pete Wright:
That's right. That's going to be our model today.

Tamara Rosier:
Yes.

Pete Wright:
So as I understand it, and I, sadly, was not able to attend the conference this year, but as I understand it, you gave a presentation at the conference that our folks really, really liked, the unexpected downside of empathy.

Tamara Rosier:
Yeah.

Pete Wright:
Where did that come from for you?

Tamara Rosier:
Actually, my next book. I turned in the manuscript. And so everything we're going to be talking about today is in my next book, You, Me, and our ADHD Family.

Pete Wright:
Outstanding.

Nikki Kinzer:
Oh, great.

Tamara Rosier:
So-

Nikki Kinzer:
Oh, so we get a little sneak preview.

Tamara Rosier:
Yeah. I'm just going to tell you guys a secret. I use the international conference on ADHD to kind of go, "How will people respond to this?" And so I use it as a workshop-

Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah.

Tamara Rosier:
... In front of people.

Nikki Kinzer:
That's great. Well, and you-

Tamara Rosier:
I get very useful feedback.

Nikki Kinzer:
Well, you did get some great feedback from our team because Melissa, it was her favorite session.

Tamara Rosier:
Oh, wow. Thank you. Yeah.

Nikki Kinzer:
She really enjoyed it. Yeah. So let's talk about it. What is empathy?

Tamara Rosier:
Yeah.

Nikki Kinzer:
Let's just define what this is.

Tamara Rosier:
So I think part of our problem is as a society, we don't understand empathy. A few weeks, not a few weeks ago, a month ago or so, I did a retreat with a really forward-thinking church, and they asked me to talk about ADHD and neurodiversity. And I'm like, "Hey, great." But when I got to the part about empathy, they were kind of questioning themselves because they thought there was one kind of empathy. And I thought I was going to lose the entire room when I said, "No, guys, there's more kinds of empathy." And again, this is a forward thinking church. They're very thoughtful. And so it's very interesting that this group of people who really focuses on serving others forgot there's three kinds.

Pete Wright:
That's like their whole mission is empathy.

Tamara Rosier:
Exactly, right?

Pete Wright:
Yeah. That's-

Nikki Kinzer:
Well, I have to admit, I mean, that's sort of where I go, is that, "Okay, you have empathy. This is the definition."

Tamara Rosier:
Yeah, right?

Nikki Kinzer:
... Not really thinking that there's different types of empathy.

Tamara Rosier:
Yes. So I want to share a metaphor with you, and the metaphor is, let's imagine our emotions are a big swimming pool. Okay, I'm talking for those of us with ADHD. And so what happens is when we have ADHD, we think if someone's in their big pool of emotions, we need to go diving in after them. And that's what empathy is. That's what we think empathy is.

Pete Wright:
Right.

Tamara Rosier:
Now here's the problem. What's the one thing we always learn when someone is in danger in the water? You don't jump in after them unless you're a highly trained lifeguard. Even highly trained lifeguards can die in that moment because the person's panicking and they can drown you, right? So unless you're a mental health provider, you don't jump in the pool with them. And this made the group I was speaking to very uneasy. They're like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa. We jump in the pool. If they're sinking to the bottom, we sink with them." And I'm saying, "Nope, there's other ways to do this."

Nikki Kinzer:
Wow.

Tamara Rosier:
Those of us with ADHD, so there's three kinds of empathy, and I didn't make these empathies up. This is from research. Okay?

Pete Wright:
Okay. So what are they?

Tamara Rosier:
The model I follow is the simplest model, because it's just three. You can find models with five, six, seven. I'm like, "Let's keep it simple. Let's go with three. So the three types are emotional, cognitive, and compassionate.

Pete Wright:
So I hear compassionate, I think, "Oh, that's the pool one."

Tamara Rosier:
Actually, yes. But the thing is we have to keep managing how our empathy is working. Let's start with emotional empathy.

Pete Wright:
Okay.

Tamara Rosier:
If you don't have ADHD, odds are you have extremely high and low emotional empathy within the same person.

Nikki Kinzer:
That kind of makes sense. I can see that, but yeah. Yeah. Please explain further. Yeah.

Tamara Rosier:
Why does that make sense to you?

Nikki Kinzer:
Well, because just thinking of my daughter, and I'm thinking that there are moments where she is really caring and like, "Oh, I'm going to help this person and I'm going to get through this." And then there's other moments where she's like, "I hate people, and I'm going up to my room, and I'm not talking to anyone."

Tamara Rosier:
That's exactly what I'm talking about. And so in the emotional empathy, it's driven by our emotions. Now, I don't know about you, but I'm a huge dog person, to the point where I can't watch dog movies without getting upset.

Nikki Kinzer:
Right, yeah. But I can watch true crime with no problem.

Tamara Rosier:
Yeah. It is an odd thing, though, right?

Pete Wright:
And how?

Nikki Kinzer:
So strange.

Tamara Rosier:
No, it's true. If I'm watching a murder mystery-

Nikki Kinzer:
Right.

Tamara Rosier:
... And obviously someone dies in every murder mystery.

Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah.

Tamara Rosier:
I'm like, "Okay, cool. What's the facts?"

Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah.

Tamara Rosier:
But if the murderer goes after a dog, I'm like, "Oh, I don't know if I can even finish watching this."

Nikki Kinzer:
Right, right.

Tamara Rosier:
I'm talking like A BBC, not a true crime thing even.

Nikki Kinzer:
Right. Yes.

Tamara Rosier:
You hear how my emotional empathy is driving how I feel with and about others.

Pete Wright:
We just watched the episode of The Daily Show that went live this week, and it was John Stewart. And he did like 40 minutes talking about the situation in the Middle East and all the tragedy going on there and closed the show talking about the death of his dog and could not contain the tears.

Tamara Rosier:
Yes. Do you see? And here's the thing, I'm not trashing emotional empathy.

Pete Wright:
No.

Tamara Rosier:
It is a human gift we have that allows us to feel with someone, and to feel viscerally with someone. It's a gift, but if we only use this one kind of empathy, guess what? We're going to get sucked in and we're going to get sucked in by narcissists. Many of my clients have been in relationships with narcissists. If we only use emotional empathy, narcissists know how to work that. They're like, "Oh, cool, I can see the strings. I can pull all these strings all day."

Pete Wright:
This unlocks the door to gaslighting.

Nikki Kinzer:
Right.

Tamara Rosier:
Yeah.

Pete Wright:
... Within the narcissistic relationship.

Tamara Rosier:
And those of us with ADHD are like, "Well, I know he's tugging on my emotions, but gosh, I see that he's so wounded, and I just feel with him on that." Do you see, that part that makes us a beautiful human is actually, if we don't temper it's dangerous.

Pete Wright:
Yeah.

Tamara Rosier:
Right?

Nikki Kinzer:
Sure, right.

Pete Wright:
So let's get to the two others and then we'll-
Yeah, what I'm curious about is do the two others help balance one another out, or they all just recipes for different ways to manipulate us?

Tamara Rosier:
No, and that's why I make an argument of, just like we use all of our senses, let's try to use all three of the empathies so that we understand what's happening, right?

Pete Wright:
Right.

Tamara Rosier:
So cognitive empathy. So first of all, when I'm teaching this to people, I say, put your hand over your heart to remember this. This is emotional empathy. And then for cognitive, it's your head. Cognitive empathy, and I know this sounds basic, but those of us with ADHD will go, "Oh, frickle frackle. What is the third one?" And sometimes it just gives us a little bit of a boost if we can do that.

Nikki Kinzer:
Right.

Tamara Rosier:
So cognitive empathy is what John Stewart was showing with the Middle East. Right?

Pete Wright:
Okay, okay.

Tamara Rosier:
And that's why Pete, that was a brilliant example. So it goes beyond feeling with. You're able to kind of take perspective and go, "What's happening here can't be right. People's lives are getting wounded and ruined. Families are getting destroyed." I have a friend who has family there, and she's lost 50 family members.

Pete Wright:
God.

Tamara Rosier:
Yeah. And she has large extended family all around, but that family unit, that's huge. That's going to leave marks on generations and generations to come. And this kind of pain that's being seen. Cognitive empathy is, "I haven't been there. I don't really understand what's happening, but man, this sucks."

Nikki Kinzer:
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Tamara Rosier:
Your John Stewart example. Now-

Pete Wright:
Yeah, where we can have both of those examples in the same broadcast.

Tamara Rosier:
Exactly.

Pete Wright:
Right? Where he can make that swing from, "I know how to rationally approach tragedy and talk about it on a journey toward hopefully some sort of resolution. And I don't know how to talk about the loss of my beloved dog."

Tamara Rosier:
And that's exactly it. So it's interesting because if he would've presented the Middle East with only emotional empathy, it would be limiting what he could talk about.

Nikki Kinzer:
Mm-hmm.

Pete Wright:
Yes.

Tamara Rosier:
Right?

Pete Wright:
Yeah. Because he could be just spitting tears and snot.

Nikki Kinzer:
Right.

Tamara Rosier:
Right. Instead, cognitive empathy allowed him to take some distance and go, "This offends my sense of justice. This is not right. And I know it because I'm human and this is..." Right?

Nikki Kinzer:
Right.

Pete Wright:
Right.

Tamara Rosier:
And he's very passionate when he's speaking. So I want to be clear that cognitive empathy isn't cold.

Pete Wright:
Right.

Tamara Rosier:
But it's perspective taking. It's the ability to kind of put it into perspective.

Pete Wright:
So everything you've described about emotional and cognitive seems to encompass, in my mind, the third empathy, compassionate. Tell me why that one is different, substantively, than what we've already talked about.

Tamara Rosier:
Yeah. Compassionate empathy is where you put action to what you're doing. After there's a school shooting or something, people go, "our thoughts and prayers are with."

Pete Wright:
Yeah.

Tamara Rosier:
And a lot of people who are angry in that moment will go, "We've had enough of your thoughts. Do something."

Pete Wright:
Yeah.

Tamara Rosier:
Right?

Pete Wright:
Right.

Tamara Rosier:
And compassionate is putting your hands out. That's the representation. So we have your heart, head. Compassion is where you put action to.

Nikki Kinzer:
That's interesting.

Tamara Rosier:
So you take this deep concern you have and you're like, "I'm going to do something about this." And you volunteer, you do different things because of this compassionate drive. Now, when I work with clients, I see my clients leaning on one or the other and not combining it. So I just met with a client yesterday, compulsive helper. She's just a beautiful human. Impulsive as the day is long about helping people. She's really using her compassionate energy. The problem with that is, I think she needs to pull back and start to think about some cognitive empathy to get perspective. And because she's not really using that one, it's like a stool that's not going to stand up on its own.

Nikki Kinzer:
Well, it's a recipe for burnout too, because you're completely, you have no boundaries at that moment. So time is limited, but you're bringing on all of this stuff, whatever it is that she's doing to help. It takes time. It takes her away from something else.

Tamara Rosier:
Exactly. Now, let me use another example. I have another client who has cognitive empathy all day long. Not really a lot of emotional empathy is there. Not really a lot of compassionate, meaning action.

Pete Wright:
Okay. Yeah, this is really interesting. So what you're describing to me, and I mean worked a long time, I know you'll relate to this because this suddenly hits home. Working in higher education for a long time. It feels to me like cognitive empathy is everywhere. This is the academic mindset.

Tamara Rosier:
Yes.

Pete Wright:
These are people who feel a sort of empathy toward a situation and then research the hell out of it and write papers on it. But that might be the limit to where they go. I mean, going back to our John Stewart example, you might make the case that compassionate empathy was his editorial choice to host a show with a Muslim and a Jew journalist on the same show at the same time.

Tamara Rosier:
Yes.

Pete Wright:
... To actually teach that process. That was a choice they had to make. They could talk about all kinds of dumpster fires going on in the world right now, and they chose that.

Tamara Rosier:
Yes.

Pete Wright:
... To host, so here we have an example of all three.

Tamara Rosier:
That's exactly it.

Pete Wright:
Where at the academic example, how many academics have I worked with who are out of balance in those three?

Tamara Rosier:
Yes. So Pete, what you just did, and I love when I talk with you guys and you're putting things together, you guys are magical. And I love this.

Pete Wright:
You're sweet.

Tamara Rosier:
So yes, it happens to all humans. And that's what you kind of just illustrated. The problem is for those of us with ADHD, we have emotional dysregulation.

Nikki Kinzer:
Right.

Pete Wright:
Yeah.

Nikki Kinzer:
Right.

Tamara Rosier:
So now this is actually dangerous.

Nikki Kinzer:
Yes.

Tamara Rosier:
Instead of just kind of not feeling, we have the tendency to over-feel, under-feel.

Nikki Kinzer:
Take on other people's pain.

Tamara Rosier:
Yes. That's exactly it.

Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Tamara Rosier:
Oh my gosh. How many times have you guys took on someone else's pain when it wasn't yours to take on?

Nikki Kinzer:
Oh, yes.

Pete Wright:
All the time.

Tamara Rosier:
All the time.

Pete Wright:
I wish I had a bell to ring.

Nikki Kinzer:
Yes, yeah.

Pete Wright:
And we call that people pleasing, right? We are just trying to help people.

Tamara Rosier:
There you go.

Pete Wright:
We're just trying to make them happy.

Tamara Rosier:
That's exactly it. So am I allowed to swear on here? I'm sorry. I have to ask before. It's a nice... It's not? Okay.

Pete Wright:
I will-

Tamara Rosier:
You'll allow that?

Pete Wright:
... Diligently beep you. The live streamers will get full unfiltered cameras.

Tamara Rosier:
I'm not going to pull out any $20 [inaudible 00:19:00]. When I work with my clients, I have the grown-ass rule. And if you were living with someone who is a grown person... There, you only have to bleep me once.

Pete Wright:
Ass isn't one of the seven words.

Tamara Rosier:
Oh, it's not?

Pete Wright:
You're okay. You could say ass, ass, ass all the live long day.

Tamara Rosier:
All right. So if you're living with someone who is a grown-ass person, we have the obligation to trust them on their developmental journey. That helps us with a boundary. Nikki?

Nikki Kinzer:
Well, I was just going to say, I think as a parent, that is so hard because we both have young adult children. And when I connected the dots with taking on other people's pain, that's where I went was I take on the pain that my kids are feeling when they're hurting. And what you just said, really, it's so true because it's me having to let go so that they are grown-ass adults, and they do need to figure out how to deal with their pain.

Tamara Rosier:
So you brought up a special case, and I do a lot of parent coaching.

Nikki Kinzer:
Yes.

Tamara Rosier:
We are biologically engineered to focus on our progeny.

Nikki Kinzer:
Makes sense. Yes.

Tamara Rosier:
Which means-

Pete Wright:
What a burden.

Tamara Rosier:
It is now because we would walk through fire for these people.

Nikki Kinzer:
Absolutely. Yeah.

Tamara Rosier:
Which means we're not rational.

Nikki Kinzer:
True, true.

Pete Wright:
Yeah.

Tamara Rosier:
And if one of my babies, and they're all grandkids, and they're doing great. But if one of my babies isn't okay, all of a sudden I'm on high alert.

Nikki Kinzer:
Yes. Yeah. It is different. Yeah. Because you're right, because if I had a, I don't know, let's just say I had a foreign exchange student or a distant cousin that was living with us for some reason, it probably would feel different. I would probably be able to do more of the cognitive empathy and be able to step back and say okay. I can be there for them and work through it with them, but I don't have to take it on myself.

Pete Wright:
Well, both of you guys, that's coaching. That's what coaching is, right? It's just an exercise of cognitive empathy.

Tamara Rosier:
Right.

Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah.

Tamara Rosier:
Well, actually, I practice emotional empathy. I practice all three what I coach, because my ADHD clients need to know that I'm with them on an emotional level. Now, I don't take on their problems, and we'll get to healthy displays in a second. I want to go back to Nikki's special case.
So there comes a time when you can have empathy for your child, but you have to dial back your compassionate empathy. And you have to dial back how much you're willing to take on the emotional empathy. And even you have to dial back your cognitive empathy. And so Nikki's in the process of watching her children grow up and go, "Ahhh, I have to dial this back now. And this is not easy, and it's not fun." And if I were working with her as a client, I would help her to see the times when she's too emotionally empathetic. By the way, my oldest child is 31 next week and my youngest is 22. And when they call, and it's such an honor when they call to work through issues. It's an honor, right? I put myself on mute because I can't contain my empathy sometimes.

Pete Wright:
Yeah. Right.

Nikki Kinzer:
Oh, that's so smart. Yes.

Tamara Rosier:
I put myself on mute, and then I take myself off mute and I step into motivational interview. Well, tell me about that. Well, how have you seen that before? And I ask questions. Meanwhile on mute, I'm like, "Oh my gosh, I can't believe this. I'm ready." Right?

Nikki Kinzer:
Right, right,

Tamara Rosier:
Because my bond with my kids is a biological bond. And for those of you who are adoptive parents, you still have that bond. In other words, you love those humans so much in an irrational way. So working with that motivation, it's really hard. So that's a special case.

Nikki Kinzer:
Right, right.

Tamara Rosier:
But going back to if you're around fully grown-ass people, spouses especially, people you work with, it is okay to feel with, to show emotional empathy. It's okay to have cognitive empathy, and it's okay to have compassionate, but we also have to do the extra step of trusting them with their journey. And we have to go, "Well, you're in a really sad place and I'm really sorry that happened." And we can fully show empathy without taking on their burdens.

Pete Wright:
That feels like a thing to dive a little bit deeper on, empathetic trust. How do you quantify, qualify, empathetic trust? Is it just approaching an internal trust relationship, aware of the three types of empathy? Is there something else to it? How do I turn that on?

Tamara Rosier:
Yeah. Early on in my life, I watched Terminator movies.

Pete Wright:
As you do.

Tamara Rosier:
Yes. As one would. And the Terminator always had a screen that he had in front of him.

Pete Wright:
Yeah.

Tamara Rosier:
So I imagine a terminator screen.

Pete Wright:
Yeah, like behind your eyes.

Tamara Rosier:
Behind my eyes.

Pete Wright:
In your clothes, your boots, and your motorcycles.

Tamara Rosier:
Yeah. And so I imagine, and I have to use my imagination, right? I don't have a reliable prefrontal cortex, so I use other parts of my brain to do this.

Pete Wright:
Right.

Tamara Rosier:
I imagine the scales going up, like, "Good. You're showing good emotional empathy. How about we show some cognitive. Okay, why don't we raise that. Ask how you can support." And that way I'm managing myself. I'm just going to be really honest, when ADHD people try to show emotional empathy, it can look very self-centered.

Pete Wright:
Yes. Yes. That's why I've asked the question. Right? That's of course why we asked the question.

Tamara Rosier:
Yeah.

Pete Wright:
Yeah.

Tamara Rosier:
And so, as I'm doing this, here's what happens. You tell me your dog died. And immediately, I think back to last March when my dog died, and I'm like, "Listen, Pete, I am so sad with you. This hurts."

Pete Wright:
Yeah, yeah.

Tamara Rosier:
And I start crying with you because I was in such pain when that happened. Uh oh, I stopped showing...

Pete Wright:
Yeah. Now it's about me. Suddenly it's me time.

Tamara Rosier:
Yeah.

Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah.

Tamara Rosier:
And then I start telling you all about my dog. Oh, she was great. She was the alpha of the house, and here's some things she did.

Pete Wright:
Meanwhile, because you've had now six months or a year to process that, and you have all those facts right on the dome. And meanwhile, I just lost my dog. I'm a mess of emotions. I can't talk about it. It just makes it look like you only want to talk about you.

Tamara Rosier:
Oh. And then I skipped the cognitive. I'm like, "You know what, Pete, you should do. Here's what I did. Here's what you should do to get over this."

Pete Wright:
Yeah, yeah. Uh, yes.

Tamara Rosier:
That's the last thing somebody wants to hear.

Pete Wright:
Yep.

Tamara Rosier:
Yep. So this is why balancing the three... ADHD people are wonderful people who want to help people. We see others, but we can come off as very self-centered if we're not really managing. If we have too much emotional empathy, it's too hard. And because our emotions are right on the surface. So when a client tells me about a dog dying. I'm like, "Whoa, yeah, that's hard to hear because I can feel with you there." And I have to release it, and remember my cognitive and compassionate.

Pete Wright:
Because what is the muscle we're trying to build here? What I'm imagining in that situation is, when I'm tempted... I got a story for everything. When I'm tempted and triggered to tell a story and know that it's me time, what is the rewiring I need to do? My sense is I need to stop, reflect, and say, "What do you need?"

Tamara Rosier:
Right.

Pete Wright:
I mean, isn't that part of it?

Tamara Rosier:
Well, so what I do, is I acknowledge that I'm having an emotional response. Because I have a face where I can't hide a thing. And by the way, most of you who are listening or watching, if you have ADHD, you can't either. So don't play poker, and don't try to lie. So I acknowledge like, "Oh, I'm sorry, that sucks." So going back to that metaphor that I opened with, imagine I'm going to stay with Pete and his dog for a second, his imaginary dog.

Pete Wright:
Also, my dog is fine, everybody. My dog really is. This is all hypothetical.

Tamara Rosier:
This is all... Yeah. Don't send him condolences.

Pete Wright:
Right.

Tamara Rosier:
This is all imaginary. And by the way, imaginary will keep me focused. Right?

Pete Wright:
Yeah.

Tamara Rosier:
Because if it really did, I'd be like, "Oh, I got to deal with my emotional." But when I see someone, let's say Pete is in his pool of deep emotions, and he's flailing around because this dog was such a companion. I come by, I sit on the edge of the pool. I don't jump in with him. And this is the restructuring question that you asked about, Pete. I don't jump in and go, "Oh my gosh, let me tell you about my dog. Let me just flail around with you." Because it's not going to really help the other person in their pool. So instead, I'm going to sit on the edge and go, "I've been in this pool before, and I'm sorry that you're there. This sucks." I'm showing emotional empathy. I can feel with you. But the second I jump in the pool, I also make it about me.

Pete Wright:
Yeah.

Tamara Rosier:
Right?

Pete Wright:
Okay, so a developmental question. Can I ask a developmental question? Do deal with kids like teens because it feels very much like teens with ADHD, this is one of those things that they really struggle with. And either they figure it out in their late teen, early twenties, or they don't, and it becomes a thing that they struggle with all their lives. Do you have any guidance?

Tamara Rosier:
Well, I didn't have this tool when I was parenting.

Pete Wright:
Yeah.

Tamara Rosier:
But now I would actually talk about the three kinds of empathy.

Pete Wright:
Okay.

Nikki Kinzer:
Think it would help them understand what's happening with their emotions.

Pete Wright:
Especially that it is a sign of empathy because I know that people without ADHD hear a kid with ADHD make it about them, like, "It's me time, stealing the spotlight." And just see it as they're just being a jerk. But it's really an empathetic experience, and that's really powerful.

Tamara Rosier:
Oh, I love that. Yes.

Nikki Kinzer:
So Tamara, I have a question. How does empathy play into grief? So not if you are grieving, but if you're with someone who's in the pool of grief, what is your thoughts on how to be there for that person?

Tamara Rosier:
Yeah. I have a lot of them. So thanks for asking that. Because it has to do with the three empathies. Do you see how, if we can manage our empathy, we're going to be better for people around us. We're going to be better parents, spouses, friends. We're just going to be better because we're not going to make it about us. We're not going to have too little empathy or the wrong kind.
So let's say someone is in the big pool of grief. The big emotion is grief. And a lot of times people with grief, they'll be angry, they'll be splashing. They'll be like, "I'm mad that this happened to me." Right? Or they'll just take a deep breath and sink to the bottom and go, "I'm just going to stay here." So I work on showing all three kinds of empathy.
First, I always try to express emotional empathy because that's our innate primal one. That's why we cry when we see others experiencing it. It touches our primal empathy. So I express, "This is heartbreaking, and I am so sorry. This is so difficult to walk through." That's like me metaphorically sitting on the side of the pool going, "I'm sorry I can't swim for you right now, but I'm going to sit here and wait with you. I'm not going to-"

Nikki Kinzer:
You're not alone.

Tamara Rosier:
Yeah, you're not alone. That's emotional empathy. And then I do cognitive empathy. Is there a perspective that I need to take here that will help give me greater understanding of the situation? And so, one of the cognitive empathy could be, "Well, I work with this person, and you know what I can do?" And so I'm doing the cognitive perspective. I know that there's a huge project due, and I know that she's carrying a big part of this project. And then my compassionate empathy goes, offer that to her. Now, compassionate empathy, I say offer it. Don't do it for them, because that's breaking the grown-ass rule. Right?
So I'm going to, back to my metaphor, I'm sitting on the side of the pool and I looked around and thought, "What can I throw her if she wants to hold onto something?" And so I look around and I see a pool noodle, and I go, "I have this. Do you want this?" And I throw it. It's still her choice whether or not to grab it. Because we really have to give dignity to the person suffering. We can't do things for them. Compassionate empathy alone actually can hurt people. And so we want to take perspective to go, "Is this useful for them?" And please, if you see someone in their pool, don't assume what's useful for them.

Nikki Kinzer:
Oh, wow. Okay. That's huge, right? Because I think there's a lot of assumptions sometimes that we make, thinking that, "Oh, we know how to help this person because this is what helped us." Well, we can't make that assumption.

Pete Wright:
This goes into, I know we've sort of been dancing around the specificity of the downsides to empathy that you talk about, but this one gets to under-functioning and over-functioning to me, it seems like. And we haven't talked much about under-functioning empathetic vein.

Tamara Rosier:
Yeah.

Pete Wright:
Talk about that.

Tamara Rosier:
Okay. So under-functioning is when I pull back my empathy and ADHD people do this all the time, and I'm sorry to call us out, but here's what it looks like. Listen, guys, I know you're having a rough time, but if you just knew my life right now, I'm surprised I have pants on. So I can't quite care what's happening in your life right now. Love you. But if you just knew how much I'm struggling,

Pete Wright:
Yeah. Oh my gosh, all the time.

Tamara Rosier:
Yeah. Tell me more about that.

Pete Wright:
Well, it's what I notice about myself, and I notice it when... Well, let's just take this morning. I'm feeling under the weather. I've taken all my drugs, but I'm feeling under the weather, and I've been traveling. And how easy would it be to say, "Oh my gosh, you guys, I'm totally overwhelmed. If only you knew the kind of travel, and the kind of crowds, and the kind of anxiety, and the kind of everything, you would understand why I have to say I can't do the podcast today."

Tamara Rosier:
Right.

Pete Wright:
Right? Which is not the right choice. That's a choice coming from a place of under-functioning empathy, I guess.

Tamara Rosier:
Yeah. And it's because at that point, you're not thinking of the burden it would place on Nikki.

Pete Wright:
Exactly. And on you and on Melissa to be rescheduling.

Tamara Rosier:
Right.

Pete Wright:
And to be doing all these things, right? But I think it's only, here I am, 51. I kind of get my hands around when I'm doing that, I start to see a pattern. But this gets back to what we were talking about earlier. It's the muscle that we're developing-

Tamara Rosier:
Yes.

Pete Wright:
... To understand and be able to recognize the patterns because when we are compromised, we are deficient in pattern recognition. That's my thinking.

Tamara Rosier:
Absolutely. Abso-freaking-lutely. So I want to be clear what under-functioning is though.

Pete Wright:
Sure.

Tamara Rosier:
Because a lot of people would be like, "Well, Pete, if you're sick, this is called self-care. Are you taking self-care?"

Pete Wright:
Right.

Tamara Rosier:
And I want to be clear, guys, I get it. I'm a Gen X-er. But there's a difference between self-care and under-functioning, meaning how you're screwing others over-

Pete Wright:
Yes.

Tamara Rosier:
... In your self-care because there's a difference. And I don't want that self-loathing listener to go, "Oh my gosh, I under-function all the time." We're talking about empathy, and I'm asking you to be aware of the three kinds of empathy all the time. Now, remember, the people-pleasers, their empathy is too high, and they're over-functioning.

Pete Wright:
Okay, right.

Tamara Rosier:
By the way, people-pleasers. I wasn't talking about you under functioning because you're always worried that you are. You're not.

Nikki Kinzer:
You're not.

Pete Wright:
The fact that you're worried that you are is a sign that you're not.

Nikki Kinzer:
Is that you're not. Right.

Pete Wright:
And maybe you're going the other direction. Yeah.

Nikki Kinzer:
So where is the making excuses for others behavior? Because that I think is an interesting point. Where does that fall in the empathy trio?

Tamara Rosier:
Great lead in. That's over-functioning.

Nikki Kinzer:
Over-functioning, okay.

Tamara Rosier:
That means I am married to someone with an addiction issue, but my emotional empathy's like, "Hey, listen, she had such a hard life. If you knew her hard life, you'd just understand why she's this way." And I'm going to do more of the work so this person can feel okay. Now we go back to the grown-ass rule. Okay, addiction is a horrible place to be, but we're not helping a person by over-functioning for them. The big picture of over-functioning is outside of empathy. That means we do too much for others. We're not following the grown-ass rule. We're thinking for others, behaving for others, compensating. But when it goes under empathy, that means I'm going to give this person all kinds of leeway. They don't have to take responsibility, and I'm just going to keep pouring that compassion, that help, kind of empathy, and that emotional empathy their way.
And guess what? When I over-function, what's missing? The cognitive empathy.

Pete Wright:
Yeah.

Nikki Kinzer:
Right.

Tamara Rosier:
Reframe it and go, "Hold up folks. This person needs to take responsibility for their addiction. It's harming the environment. It's harming me. It's harming." So you see, it's so important that we have all three.

Pete Wright:
Right.

Nikki Kinzer:
Yes.

Pete Wright:
How does empathy and imbalance in your relationship with the three types of empathy relate to rejection and RSD?

Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah.

Tamara Rosier:
I think that's too personal. Can we just skip that one?

Nikki Kinzer:
[inaudible 00:39:52].

Tamara Rosier:
Uh, no. So, because some of us don't have well-regulated emotion at all. And I'll be really honest, I'm new to this rodeo. I spent the first 40 years of my life, too much empathy, in narcissistic family members. I got into relationships with narcissists. It was bad. And so I got in trouble. I got in hot water this way, and unfortunately, I had to learn things the hard way. I was over-functioning in empathy, constantly giving them the break. Well, they had a really tough childhood.
And finally, a friend came alongside of me and said, this metaphor, which has always stuck with me. "I love that you see that this person's on crutches, and you want to hold the door open for them. That's fantastic. But are you realizing that every time he walks through the door, he's hitting you with his crutches?" Metaphorically, again, people.

Pete Wright:
Yeah.

Tamara Rosier:
Right? So my over-functioning was the empathy of, "Wow, I feel for this person. I see how wounded he is. Let me just do this."

Pete Wright:
Thereby allowing them to under-function.

Tamara Rosier:
Oh, yes. Every time someone's over-functioning.

Pete Wright:
[inaudible 00:41:20] this whole thing. Yeah.

Tamara Rosier:
You have an under-function.

Nikki Kinzer:
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Tamara Rosier:
Yeah.

Pete Wright:
Okay.

Nikki Kinzer:
So what are some things that you could do or practice now that we know this, right? Now, that we have this knowledge and we're aware of it, how do we work more towards a balance of all three types of empathy?

Tamara Rosier:
Yeah. So look for the pitfalls. And the pitfalls are, the first one is misplacing your empathy. And usually the misplaced empathy is the emotional empathy. You're just like, "Oh, I just feel so sorry for everything and every one." I have a client who will see a dead deer on the side of the road and go, "Oh my gosh, that just wrecked my day."

Pete Wright:
Right.

Tamara Rosier:
Right? Now, I'm not saying we shouldn't feel sorry for deer, just to be clear.

Nikki Kinzer:
Right.

Tamara Rosier:
But it's misplacing the energy of empathy where she feels that overwhelmed. I mean, I see a deer on the side of the road, and I'm like, "Gosh, I wish that didn't happen." Right? I have emotional empathy for that. But when we misplace too much energy there, it's draining to us. And a lot of ADHD people suffer physically because of this.

Pete Wright:
There's a great Seinfeld episode where Jerry's dating a woman who... Do you know what I'm talking about? The hot dog woman.

Tamara Rosier:
Yes, I do.

Pete Wright:
Right? She cries over everything. Hot dog falls out of the butt on the floor, she's crying, crying, crying. And the punchline to that joke is at the very last scene, she gets a call that her grandmother died. And she's like, "Oh, well. Guess grandma's gone." No tears at all. And Jerry doesn't understand that. I feel like Jerry is my emotional support animal in that episode, not understanding how that's actually an expression, again, of empathy, those three types of empathy being out of balance.

Tamara Rosier:
Yes, yes. And okay, back to Nikki's question. I had a client say to me, she's a veterinarian, very smart woman. She's like, "I don't know how intensely to feel about things." So something we worked on together was concentric circles. And so her first action would be put it in a circle. And so she's like, "There's just tragedy everywhere in the world. People die." She was a vet and she lost a cat on the table by cleaning its teeth, so she was feeling horrible. She's like, "I don't know how to feel. I don't know the intensity." Right? And so we worked on defining concentric circles for her to understand where it goes. And that helped her modulate her empathy.

Pete Wright:
Yeah.

Tamara Rosier:
You see, we're talking about modulation and making sure we have all three in there.

Pete Wright:
Yeah, right.

Tamara Rosier:
And as ADHD folks, this is where I see most of my clients really struggling. It gets us into trouble in a lot of ways. The next one is, know when you're in empathetic distress.

Pete Wright:
What is the symptoms of empathetic distress?

Tamara Rosier:
Yeah. Well, if we're going back to Pete telling me his dog died.

Pete Wright:
Okay.

Tamara Rosier:
I'm like, "Oh, my gosh. That's horrible." And I'm carrying on. And what's sad is I'm going to start to make it about me.

Pete Wright:
Right.

Tamara Rosier:
Or I find out something that is so sad for me that I can't eat for two days. And it's not even about me. It's about my neighbor's daughter who's not doing well, and she ran away. And you know what I mean, it's sad. I'm feeling so much about that situation. That's empathetic distress. If it's outside of your sphere of influence, you really have to question how much empathy you should be showing.

Nikki Kinzer:
Well-

Pete Wright:
Well now, this is really interesting because all of a sudden, when you start talking about, again, the circle or sphere of influence, there is either intentional or unintentional manipulation, self-manipulation, as we drag ourselves inward toward the gravitational pull of distress and make ourselves a part of the sphere of influence. And that can't be healthy either.

Nikki Kinzer:
No. Well, and one of the ways that I manage my anxiety is I will purposely, if I see, well, this just happened last week. There was a news thing that happened. It was so close to home, I could not watch it. I fast forwarded it because we record the news. Anyway, but I fast forwarded it because I just did not want to go there. I didn't want to put myself in that situation because I knew it would make my anxiety up to 10. I think that's kind of similar to what you're saying. It's like you don't have to put yourself into it if it's not in your sphere. That had nothing to do with me.

Tamara Rosier:
So you just modeled what you did. You modulated, and you're like, "This is too much for me. I will go in empathetic distress."

Nikki Kinzer:
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Tamara Rosier:
Now, I still have cognitive empathy for what's happening around the world, and I actually have a lot of emotional empathy for it, too. But to help me balance, I look and go, "All right, what are my compassionate empathy options? Oh, I don't have any because it already happened. It's a new story." Then I have to modulate differently. And this is where my clients start to get uncomfortable, just like that group I was speaking with, because they're like, "Wow, Tamara, you're cold. You might as well be the tin man from The Wizard of Oz. Right? You don't have a heart."

Pete Wright:
Oh, dare to dream.

Tamara Rosier:
Right. If only.

Pete Wright:
If only.

Tamara Rosier:
But the truth is, those of us with ADHD, we feel so much.

Nikki Kinzer:
Yes.

Tamara Rosier:
And I'm learning that that's a waste of energy to feel this unguarded empathy. And I need my energy to show empathy to people in my sphere of influence. I need to do that. That's what makes me, in my circle, effective.

Nikki Kinzer:
Right, right.

Tamara Rosier:
So I can't be squandering.

Nikki Kinzer:
So I know we need to wrap it up. And the last question I want to ask you is, I'm really curious how you got into this. How did this interest you? Why did you decide to write a book about it?

Tamara Rosier:
Yeah.

Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah. Where did it come from?

Tamara Rosier:
So I wrote You, Me and our ADHD Family because I saw families doing ADHD, common trip-ups, just all over the place. And I started to see this pattern of, "Wow, family members don't regulate their empathy." And when they don't regulate their empathy to each other, we get in major trouble. We get a 17-year-old who really can't use the restroom by himself because his mom's standing at the door saying, "Honey, do you have enough toilet paper?" So we really need to regulate empathy in order to love better. And I think this next book is all about, the first part is just get yourself to be a good human in your own family first, and then figure out this relationship piece. And the empathy comes into the emotional management piece.

Nikki Kinzer:
I love it. Thank you so much, Tamara.

Pete Wright:
Yeah.

Nikki Kinzer:
This was great. I learned a lot. I always learn from you. I just love that. Thank you so much.

Tamara Rosier:
I love talking with you guys. I love how you guys just interact. So thank you so much.

Pete Wright:
Yeah. Well, thank you for introducing the three horsemen of the empathetic apocalypse to the show. My goodness. Once again, a lot to think about.

Nikki Kinzer:
Great.

Pete Wright:
Where do you want people to go to learn more about your work and the book? Do you already have a landing page for the upcoming book, or are looking months out?

Tamara Rosier:
Nope. In the publishing world, everything takes a long time. So I have a book cover, but the landing page-

Nikki Kinzer:
A book cover with not a book in it yet.

Pete Wright:
Yeah, right.

Tamara Rosier:
The script's there.

Nikki Kinzer:
Okay.

Tamara Rosier:
It's going through final proof editing. It's a long process, but it comes out September of '24.

Nikki Kinzer:
Right.

Pete Wright:
Well, that's good timing, wink.

Tamara Rosier:
Yeah.

Pete Wright:
See at the conference.

Tamara Rosier:
Yep. Don't think that's not on purpose. But also you can go to tamararosier.com. That's my author's website. Great.

Pete Wright:
Tamararosier.com, a link you in the show notes, as always. Tamara, you're the best. Thanks for hanging out with us. We so appreciate you.

Nikki Kinzer:
Thanks.

Tamara Rosier:
Well, I think you guys are pretty awesome.

Nikki Kinzer:
Aww, thank you.

Pete Wright:
I'm putting that on my website. Tamara thinks I'm pretty awesome.

Tamara Rosier:
All good.

Pete Wright:
And thank you everyone.

Tamara Rosier:
Pretty awesome.

Pete Wright:
We appreciate you downloading and listening to this show. Thanks for your time and your attention. Don't forget if you have something to contribute to the conversation, we're heading over to the Show Talk channel in our Discord server. And you can join us right there by becoming a supporting member at the deluxe level or better. Patreon.com/theADHDpodcast. On behalf of Nikki Kinzer and Tamara Rosier, I'm Pete Wright, and we'll see you right back here next week on Taking Control: The ADHD Podcast.