The Cycle of Accountability: Reclaiming Presence with Dr. Nachi Felt
When Dr. Nachi Felt first joined us, he introduced two big ideas that stuck with a lot of listeners—the Cycle of Ambiguity and the Cycle of Agency. Those conversations gave language to what so many of us experience every day with ADHD: the frustration of getting stuck, and the relief that comes when we finally start moving again.
This time, Nachi is back to take the next step forward with something new: the Cycle of Accountability. It’s not about guilt or discipline or “holding yourself to higher standards.” It’s about what happens when you stop treating accountability like punishment and start seeing it as connection—to your values, to your sense of purpose, to the people who matter to you.
Together, we dig into how meaning drives motivation for ADHD brains, why avoidance feels so sneaky and familiar, and how the smallest acts of self-acceptance can spark real change. Along the way, Nachi talks about trauma, growth, and what it means to finally believe that you matter enough to take ownership of your own story.
Links & Notes
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Pete Wright
Hello, everybody, and welcome to Taking Control, the ADHD podcast on True Story FM. I'm Pete Wright and I'm here with Nikki Kinzer.
Nikki Kinzer
Hello, everyone. Hello, Pete Wright.
Pete Wright
Oh Nikki, what a fine day it is. We are in the perfect time of year. Nothing sucks about being outside. Right now. There's I've got no allergies. I've there's no smoke in the air. The temperature is perfect. I feel like we've got about two weeks before the rains come and everyone's miserable. And so I'm just living it up.
Nikki Kinzer
It's true.
Pete Wright
Windows open.
Nikki Kinzer
Good fall.
Pete Wright
Living it up. We have a I it is fall. Oh God, I live for fall. We have a fantastic conversation on deck for today with a dear friend of the show. and he's back to talk about so many things, including his book, and now he's got a podcast. It's like he leaves And just goes crazy creating all kinds of great stuff. And so I don't know. I don't know if we'll even get it all in. We have so much to talk about before we get started, we'd love for you to get to know us a little bit better at takecontrolADHD. com. Listen to the show right there on the site. Sign up for our mailing list to get new episodes each week, and connect with us on Facebook and Instagram and Pinterest and Blue Sky and all the places. at take control ADHD. The best way to connect, join us on the ADHD Discord community, a welcoming space full of people who, you know, get it. You can hop into the general chat anytime at take controladhd.com slash discord. And if this show has ever made a difference for you, has helped You feel seen or understood or just a little more capable, we would love your support. Patreon makes this listener-supported podcast possible. With just a few dollars a month, you help us keep growing, add new features, and invest more heavily in this very community. Visit patreon. com slash the adhd podcast to learn more and become a part of what makes this show thrive. Today, we are welcoming back one of our favorite voices in the ADHD community, Dr. Nachi Felt, clinical psychologist, professor at Columbia University. Author of the forthcoming book, Clear Headed. Last time Dr. Felt joined us, he walked us through two powerful frameworks, the cycle of ambiguity and the cycle of agency, tools that helped us understand how our emotions, attention, and And actions loop together to either trap us or propel us forward. This week he's introducing the next evolution of this work, the cycle of accountability. What happens when ADHD isn't just about managing attention, but about reclaiming ownership of who we are and how we direct our lives. He's here to show us that accountability, when rooted in compassion and clarity, can be the bridge. between intention and meaningful action. Nachi, welcome back to the show.
Dr. Nachi Felt
That was great. Wow. You guys put it better than I do.
Nikki Kinzer
It's beautiful.
Pete Wright
Thank you very much. I appreciate it. that.
Nikki Kinzer
Good snap
Pete Wright
So yeah, last time you were here, March 2024, we had our Patreon exclusive after show, the member chat, after we did the podcast, you shared the cycle of ambiguity. the problem, followed by the cycle of agency, the solution, and nobody really got to hear it in the on our public feed because it was in the member after show. It was like a an Easter egg. And now we're here to lay out that as the foundation and tell us about how your thinking has continued to evolve in this. in this space. So kick us off with the cycle of ambiguity. Let's get everybody up to speed.
Dr. Nachi Felt
Perfect. Yeah, I felt really bad about last time. I had to leave right away. This time I'm here. sad, right? That like the of all the times now it's the quieter one. But hey, for those for those of you who are here, you get you get me all to yourselves.
Pete Wright
Yeah, right, right.
Nikki Kinzer
That's right.
Dr. Nachi Felt
and it was yeah that was really really fun the Shame Spirals with James Zakoa that was also really really great like really fun stuff.
Pete Wright
and yeah.
Dr. Nachi Felt
It's always a party here.
Pete Wright
So tell us about the cycles of ambiguity cycle.
Dr. Nachi Felt
So psychoambiguity is is that is that stuckness that many of us kind of relate to. It's where our prefrontal cortex doesn't really Process information as quickly or efficiently as other people, maybe too quickly, more like much faster than everyone else. So that means we have like a ton of info coming into this really powerful brain of ours. And there's just so much data flying around there that it's just a lot. And the brain starts feeling like pretty overwhelmed in a way by all of this information. In a way, it's it's Specifically because our brain is so fast and that we take in so much data and that we notice all these details that other people don't like other people could just walk in to a coffee shop like they're just going to get their coffee and that's it. Like we go in, you meet your friend, you saw someone has a really cute dog and you want to say hi. Where'd you get those shoes? Oh my god, let me try a new flavor today. It's a totally like it's a different experience. It's two people walk into a coffee shop. But if one of us is ADHD, it's a totally different experience than the other, like more neurotypical fellow. So in a way, what's happening in our brain is that so much data is coming in and we're it's happening so fast. We're not like fully forming everything. We're not necessarily always like sourcing everything we need to properly because we're not staying on stuff for as long as we need, or there's just too much of it. There's just too much data. So it's either too little data or too much data. But the result is still this like ambiguity, this like lack of clarity, this confusion. I'm not really sure. And again, we're awesome at coping with this, that's for sure, right? But I'm just pointing out what's happening in the brain behind that noggin. Right? Well, here you get direct access into it. But is that is this like kind of ambiguity fueled overwhelm of like, whoa, there's just a lot happening here. So we end up just sticking to things that are familiar to us, right? Cause like that's just calm.
Pete Wright
That's the avoidance part.
Dr. Nachi Felt
That's the first part. Yeah, that's the first part.
Pete Wright
Okay.
Dr. Nachi Felt
And then that like when we have so much data or too little data happening and we're not like really clear about something makes us feel uncomfortable. Which is why many of us end up going straight to the the evil stepsister of anxiety, which is avoidance, right? So it goes ambiguity, right? Our brain kind of has either too much or too little data, right? Then anxiety because it feels uncomfortable. I'm not talking about clinical anxiety. I think in one of our first podcasts we discerned the difference between clinical anxiety, which is Where it's like an exaggerated response. It's something that's not necessarily proportionate to what you're nervous about. Here we have every reason to be nervous about whatever we're nervous about. Because I mean we earn the right to be nervous.
Pete Wright
Yeah, all the time.
Dr. Nachi Felt
and then that leads straight to avoidance.
Pete Wright
Well, and this is I mean this is kind of I I don't know. I mean I look at these the the sort of cycles we're talking about today and I I feel like I very much know the feeling of just living in the cycle of ambiguity all the time and stopping. just like not moving forward at all. and so if we you know, I mean but part of it, if you want to comment on what it's like to live in that space full time, I'm here for it. But the other piece is, you know, when we talk about pattern interrupts, like breaking cycles, that feels like what we're what you're talking about with the cycle of agency.
Dr. Nachi Felt
A thousand percent. Yeah. It's funny because like neurotypicals will sometimes overhear this kind of stuff. Like let's say when I work with parents, I do a lot of parent coaching. So obviously the ADHD apple doesn't fall far from the ADHD tree. So one of them in the room is gonna also have it. But for the neurotypical partner, they'll be like, wait, I also do that. And I'll be like, yeah, yeah, yeah. But but we do it way more often, way more frequently. And like this is our life. We're in a constant like state of cycle of ambiguity.
Nikki Kinzer
Right, because I think about like the coffee shop and I'm thinking like I'll go into the coffee shop knowing what I want to order. I'll still notice the cute dog. And I still might notice like some of the things on the wall or whatever, but it's not the same amount of noise that you were just ex, you know, explaining. It's it it is heightened for sure.
Dr. Nachi Felt
Yeah.
Pete Wright
Yeah, I might walk out with the dog.
Nikki Kinzer
Right, yeah. I might walk out with a new coffee cup for sure, because it's cute and shiny, but and overspending, but that's a whole nother show.
Dr. Nachi Felt
And the years.
Pete Wright
I don't know how ADHD leads to larceny. Right, right.
Nikki Kinzer
Yeah.
Pete Wright
So when we're talking about breaking the pattern leading to the cycle of agency, how does that how how do we feel more agency in our skin?
Dr. Nachi Felt
That's such a good question. I love that you use the word interrupt, right? That it's like a cyc you have to interrupt the cycle. as my own thinking like matured, I realized that this is if you break down habit, like the habit loop, I think It's from James Clear, atomic habits, right? So it's rem I'm saying it in my own words just because I remember the three R's better than his random three stuff, but it goes reminder. reaction or response and reward, right? So let's say you're one of those nail biters, you see your nails, one of them's a little bit funny, right? That's the reminder, response is you start to bite your nail, right? And reward is ah now they're neat again. Right. It's any bad habit, right? Any good habit, right? You see a indigent person and you feel bad for them and you drop a dollar in the thing like that, right? And then you feel awesome. Hey, look, I'm a kind, I'm a kind person. Right? Like any like any habit, right? It's it's that habit loop. So in a way, if you look at it through that lens, the cycle of ambiguity is I have this reminder, which is I feel confused Confused or overwhelmed, right? That's the cue, the reminder. The response is: I feel uncomfortable. I don't like that feeling of discomfort. So I avoid the discomfort by going to my phone. Right, or the news or I don't know, organizing my closet or making another drink. And then that's the reward is now I don't feel anxious anymore. I don't feel the anxiety of that overwhelm of that ambiguity. So it's That habit loop, right? So it's a reminder, response, reward. So what the cycle of agency does is we replace the reaction with something else that gives you a more adaptive reward. rather than the maladaptive reward of avoidance. Here, let me walk you through, right? So you have the same cue, the same reminder, which is the ambiguity, right? Like let's pick something. I think when when we spoke about this, I I used my taxes as an example. coming up oh October 15th just passed. Well, for all those people who filed an extension. so with taxes, right? So I'm feeling uncomfortable and and overwhelmed by it. Like, oh God, did I do everything? I don't even know where I keep all the forms. How the hell like how am I gonna out of eat right? It's overwhelmed instantly, right? So in a way, the reaction or response usually is straight to the fridge. Right? You're just like you're back in the fridge. You're looking in there. Hmm, I wonder what we got in here. It hasn't changed since the last time you checked 12 minutes ago, but you never know. Right. And so instead though, if I could change my reaction, right, that instead of me responding to that ambiguity with the calm of avoidance, right, which is maladaptive and just Leaves me feeling well much fatter and gross about myself, right? By being in the fridge all the time. Instead, we go through the cycle of agency. The cycle of agency starts with acceptance, which is accepting that I feel overwhelmed. Look at that! Like, how crazy is that, right? The idea of that, like accepting ourselves. It's an awareness of our situation. Like, our brain just is our brain. It's not something we chose. This is not like a moral failure. We just are like Like to quote Lady Gaga, baby I was born this way. Like, this is it. This is how God made me
Pete Wright
I i I I feel like there's a difference between accepting the reality of the situation that is my brain. And falling into that sort of self-pity.
Dr. Nachi Felt
Oh, I love that question I was hoping you were gonna ask, and I love that you Jumped on that. Yes, it's a huge, huge, huge thing. My wife always gets a little bit uncomfortable when I talk about this because you're just telling people to be victims.
Pete Wright
Yeah.
Dr. Nachi Felt
No, I disagree. Right? It's not, and I'll tell you why. Because it's the way I understand it is if we zoom out to see the bigger picture, what's happening here is it's the first step of personal responsibility. is accepting who I am and what I'm up against. That's the first stage. If I'm gonna constantly be in denial that no, next time I'm gonna do my taxes on time. Yeah right.
Pete Wright
Yeah, right.
Dr. Nachi Felt
Yeah right you're gonna do it on time next year. Yeah right. That's just lying to yourself. So it the personal responsibility starts with being honest with ourselves. When you're honest with yourself, then you can build the foundation for anything good. Nothing good in this world can be built on falsehood besides for politics. Right, but everything else, right, anything good in this world, right, is built on a foundation of truth. And the truth is that this is our brain. This is us. Now, the question is, what do I do with that truth? Right? That's the question. And so the idea is that once I'm able to accept myself that like this is me, this is like how I was made and and the challenges I'm gonna have to deal with. The question is now what do I want to do about it? You're right. You do have the the free free will, reign supreme, Pete. If you want, you could just roll over and be like, well, it's my ADHD. Yeah, you could. Three countries
Pete Wright
Well, I and I feel like we need to say those words out loud because that's a space that we're all very familiar with, right? Just like figuring out. a acceptance can also lead to that next that next like stopping point, that next roadblock, that next speed bump, to say, Okay, well, I guess I'm accepting that I have ADHD and now I'm sad and now I stepped in poo.
Dr. Nachi Felt
That's a resignation and a surrender. That's not acceptance. Acceptance is that this is me and I'm gonna move forward with it. Surrender and resignation is this is me and I just turn over and you know look for the remote.
Pete Wright
Well, neither of those words start with an A, and so we know that there's opportunity ahead.
Dr. Nachi Felt
That that's a very different world. That's true. That is true. You know, my brain's trying to find something with an A nail. but yeah I like that question, which is yeah, it it is about what you do with it, right? And acceptance could be obviously misused. But the real question is, what do you do with it? Like, what are you gonna do about it? And so the next step of the cycle of agency is acuity. with an A, right? Which is like it's really supposed to be clarity, but clarity doesn't start with an A.
Pete Wright
Of course. No.
Dr. Nachi Felt
So acuity is the next best thing. And acuity is where you zoom out to see the bigger picture so that you can zoom back in. I love this. I call it zoom out to zoom in. When you zoom out and be like, okay, so my brain takes in way too much, right? And I'm super impulsive. So every time I walk by the store, it costs me 40 bucks just to look at the store, right? So now I know, hey, don't go to the store unless I know it's like a surgical strike. I know I'm coming in for toilet paper and shampoo. That's it. All right, and a Snickers, right? But like That's it. I have to keep that focus. If I just wander into that store, yeah, I'm gonna walk out 40 bucks for it. And I'm not on stupid stuff. And I'm I don't even know why I bought that. Like who even needed that?
Pete Wright
So so zooming out is the act of saying, I need to go to the store for for needs.
Dr. Nachi Felt
I don't know. M more than that, is zooming out is recognizing that if I walk in that store without being focused, without like a certain driven direction. I'm gonna totally wander through with a full cart. You know, like those people just like kind of meandering down the aisle. Hmm. Right? Like that I could get sucked into that so fast. It's kind of nice actually You're like in this world of possibilities and you get to forget that it costs money.
Pete Wright
It's the it's the TikTok of food.
Dr. Nachi Felt
You just look at I like this. Oh yum.
Pete Wright
Are you kidding?
Dr. Nachi Felt
It's so good. It's so fun.
Pete Wright
Absolutely.
Dr. Nachi Felt
It's really nice.
Pete Wright
So I I I I think it's important because what you c because I happen to I I I I read ahead. And I happen to know that the next A is agency. And I I feel like we have to talk about these two in partnership with one another. other because agency is the other area for me where I can I I can go south because I feel like I am so out of control often that when I mmm when I'm in the store and I'm going for shampoo and toilet paper One way for me to feel like I'm in control is to spend the extra forty bucks.
Dr. Nachi Felt
Yeah, yeah, no, that's true. And that's why the other side, right, which is the zoom in, right? We zoomed out to realize, hey, I'm just impulsive and I'm probably gonna end up spending 40 bucks that I don't want to spend. Right. Allows me to zoom in and be like, no, I'm just gonna walk in. I'm only gonna get that thing. I'm going straight to that aisle. I'm gonna check which one it says on the little top sign thingy. I'm gonna get that. I'm gonna go straight to the checkout and that's it. If I did, then I'll allow myself to buy the stupid impulse buys on the counter, and that's fair. I earned it. And then you get back your control, Pete. But you got it in an adaptive way where you feel agency, you feel good about yourself. That's the gift of zooming out to zoom in, is it gives you agency. Agency is the gift you get when you work through acceptance to acuity to create that clarity for yourself, you get the gift of agency. It's that like puffed chest feeling of I got this. I got this. I freaking owned that. I'm gonna buy two chocolate bars. I owned it.
Nikki Kinzer
Well, I'm also thinking on the kind of opposite end of I'm not going to buy two chocolate bars, but I'm going to have the exact amount of cash with me. To bring into I'm gonna go back to the coffee shop because I know exactly what I'm gonna order and I have the cash and that's what I'm giving. And to me, that's proving to myself that I do have The acceptance that I'm going to be tempted to buy something. and coming to terms with this is what helps me to make sure that I stay focused and be proud that I can walk out and still get the coffee that that I want. And it's still a treat, right? Um
Dr. Nachi Felt
I like that.
Nikki Kinzer
And he yeah.
Dr. Nachi Felt
I like that a lot, Nikki. I'm pushed back with a little bit of like a foreshadowing here. I like it. I just know that in myself that would never happen. First of all, I just can't plan ahead well enough to like then have the cash the format that I needed.
Nikki Kinzer
Well, that's true.
Dr. Nachi Felt
That's just too much.
Nikki Kinzer
Yeah. That's a whole nother level of planning for it, yeah.
Dr. Nachi Felt
And deeper than that, which hopefully we'll touch on when we get to the third cycle, the cycle of accountability, is I feel like it infantilizes us.
Nikki Kinzer
What do you mean by that?
Dr. Nachi Felt
A lot of times growing up as a kid with ADHD means that you were considered uncontrollable and people, adults, wasted a lot of effort. trying to control you or trying to like impose some sort of structure on you or force some sort of authority. And it makes sense that as we grow up, we kind of reject that a little bit. And and and if not it doesn't come out in that aggressive way, but more like passively, we're seeking it. We're definitely seeking some sort of like what Pete hinted to. Like I want to feel in control. I won't control my life back.
Pete Wright
I haven't had it for so long. I've I feel like all of the actions to help me with my ADHD were punitive in some way, shape, or form. And this is a way for me. To exert my authority
Dr. Nachi Felt
Which is why we buy all the random that we see w that we want. Because we're like Like find me, I'm I I'm a poor I can get whatever I want. I could I'm big.
Nikki Kinzer
I can make this decision.
Dr. Nachi Felt
I'm a big boy again. Yeah, it's like I'm a real boy.
Nikki Kinzer
Yeah.
Pete Wright
Yeah, well and that's the visualization.
Dr. Nachi Felt
You know, like Pinocchio
Pete Wright
That's the visualization too, and I've I've said this. I I'm sure on this show that that that part of me is still like I'm carrying him on my back, right? And he's making those decisions when I'm not, when I am in a compromised state. Agency.
Dr. Nachi Felt
Is sometimes you gotta get yourself to do the damn thing. So that's that's why it's its own thing. I realize that like for the neurotypicals, it like kind of once you feel agency, you you just do it like you're like oh yeah I got this and then you do it but for us yeah but maybe I should just check the news nah let me just look at my email for just do it You know, Nike style. Just do it. So that then reinforces the cycle because now I could really accept myself from a place of truth and competence. That like, hey, wait a minute. Look, when I calm myself down Right. I end up getting the reward of that relief of anxiety, right? And I got my stuff done. Right? Like, how cool is that? So this was an adaptive way of responding to that in that original cue, the original reminder of that overwhelm as I created that calm. And you know what that does, Nikki? That puts you back in control. You now can control your body again. You are now becoming a real, like you're the one who has real control. You're taking that back. You're the authority for yourself. Can you think of any greater gift?
Nikki Kinzer
Right. Yeah, for sure.
Pete Wright
Otherwise I feel like I end up taking advantage of myself, right? If if I'm operating as that kid hanging off my back, then he's just getting the glee of having an adult wallet attached to him, right? He can make those decisions.
Dr. Nachi Felt
And then the adult's the one who pays for it with more than just cash.
Pete Wright
And
Dr. Nachi Felt
Like guilt, shame, resentment, anger at yourself, self-criticism, like damn it, when I do that again.
Pete Wright
Things that that kid will never will never know.
Dr. Nachi Felt
Yeah, he's fine.
Pete Wright
Right.
Dr. Nachi Felt
He's fine.
Pete Wright
He's done, yeah.
Dr. Nachi Felt
He's laughing his way to the bank. Yeah, he already had whatever he wanted.
Pete Wright
Exactly.
Dr. Nachi Felt
He's good.
Pete Wright
All right. So tell us that we've that's the that's the setup. That's what we talked about in our long, long, long time ago in the member post show chat.
Dr. Nachi Felt
In previous episodes
Pete Wright
Now let's In a previous episode. Now let's talk about this the the cycle of accountability, the third cycle.
Dr. Nachi Felt
This one's a tough one. This one's really tough. And it and it's really coming down to address this exact point that we brought up about control and really feeding the deeper underlying needs that we have as humans. who grew up with executive functioning challenges. at its like I know the name accountability like is a trigger word for people like us. Like, oh no, am I in trouble? and I want to clarify what I mean by accountability. my definition of accountability is where something matters to you. That's it. and so when something matters to you, then it's meaningful, right? There's there's or something that's meaningful to you will matter to you. Meaning it's It's about making it mine. So that's the question. Like, how do I regain control?
Nikki Kinzer
Yeah, I like that.
Dr. Nachi Felt
How do I heal that inner child so that he doesn't have to keep robbing my wallet and my self-esteem?
Nikki Kinzer
It well, it's a much nicer way of looking at it than, you know, are you accountable for what you did? Versus I mean that's the that's the harsh critic
Pete Wright
Yeah, because that's that's not it. That's right. That's that's responsibility, right? That's you should have felt a certain way. by this action, right? And and that's not I we spend so much time trying to shed our shoulds.
Nikki Kinzer
And the shame and all of that that comes with it, yeah.
Pete Wright
And the shame. Yeah.
Nikki Kinzer
Mm-hmm. I like this. So the accountability is something that matters to you. It's something that's meaningful to you.
Dr. Nachi Felt
Yeah, yeah, a thousand percent. So this cycle, right? Those of you who want to take notes because this one's new, starts with alignment. Alignment is well, what matters to you? Like what do you want? And I always say like a lot of life comes down to the spice girls. Tell me what you want, what you really, really want. Like that's that's really what it's about is tell me what you really want. What do you want out of your life? What do you want out of this class? What do you want out of this family get-together? What do you want out of this dinner with your family? What do you want out of this date with your girlfriend? What do you want out of this time hanging out with your sisters? What do you want?
Pete Wright
I I do I so I I ran across this sidebar. Sidebar, may I post approach the bench. we there's a book that I just picked up called Everybody Needs a Manifesto. which is sort of a guided tour on how we as humans often don't spend enough time thinking about exactly that question and taking the time to stop. and consider and reflect and write down what you believe in can help you in so many different areas of your life. And I had not yet thought about how it applies here.
Dr. Nachi Felt
Really? Because speaking of great books, I think in your book you talk about something like that, which is like trying to find what's meaningful for you, like some sort of weekly like check-in with yourself.
Pete Wright
Well, for sure, but
Nikki Kinzer
Reflections. We have a whole bunch of reflection questions and things like that.
Pete Wright
Reflections. Yeah, that's that's that's really true, but but the the idea of attaching of of me sitting down
Nikki Kinzer
Yeah.
Pete Wright
And attaching that responsibility part to my identity, I guess, not just what I'm doing and what's important to me in the moment, but who I am. That's where I'm, yeah.
Dr. Nachi Felt
I love that. Yeah, yeah, a thousand percent. And that's what my book, Clear Headed, is about, is to get you clear so that you come into life clear headed. You know exactly what you want from not just the coffee shop, not just from the store, but from your life. What do you want from your relationship? What do you want from your like religion, from your politics? What do you want from life?
Pete Wright
Yeah.
Nikki Kinzer
Yeah.
Pete Wright
Yeah.
Nikki Kinzer
And that's hard to answer, right? I think that that's a really difficult because I've asked that Many times in coaching calls, you know, what is it that you want? What what do you want in the situation? And it is a hard question to answer.
Dr. Nachi Felt
What would you answer, Nikki?
Nikki Kinzer
See, I would have to ask like, what are you asking?
Dr. Nachi Felt
I think what do you want what do you want from your life?
Nikki Kinzer
What do I want in what? Like for my life.
Dr. Nachi Felt
Like what do you want from your life?
Nikki Kinzer
Oh boy. See it is. It's so hard because it's so big. Meaning, you know, I think, you know, connection, family, community, work that matters. But I also want balance. Like I was telling somebody just before we got on that I have never been the one to work a lot. Like I like having time to myself. I like having time with my family and friends. And so it's important to have a job where I don't have to work. you know, eighty hours a week and yeah, so there's a lot to that.
Dr. Nachi Felt
Yeah.
Nikki Kinzer
Yeah, there's a lot.
Pete Wright
And that's what I mean. That's what makes it so hard, because we're not sitting here talking about, here is a menu of all of the things that I have to do. Let me figure out how they align with who I am right now. We're starting in the opposite direction, which is the thing I don't think people do that often, which is who am I? What do I w how do I want to be seen in the world? and then do the thing or focus our attention on the things that align with that. That's inverse to what I think most people do.
Dr. Nachi Felt
Yeah, it reminds me of a line from one of the songs from The Greatest Showman, which is We can a million dreams, right? We can design the world we live in, or something like that. Like live in a world we design. Right. And I thought I was like thinking to myself, like, wow, like thank God I live in a world that I've designed. I'm surrounded by family and friends, by people I love doing what I love. I'm just so lucky. I've actually I actually am living in a world that I designed. And I think it's such a beautiful blessing that I hope. Everyone listening could and even if you don't listen, I'll begrudgingly give you that too, right? You should also have it, you know. But like I really hope that anyone listening to this, like this will give you that same like blessing of of being able to feel like you're living in a world that you've designed.
Pete Wright
So that's the first A for the this particular cycle of accountability. The next one is accountability.
Dr. Nachi Felt
Yeah, so this one right now that we we're seeing accountability a little bit more gently and a little bit more like truthfully, It's not as like nasty, right? So now accountability just means well now that this matters to me, like Nikki, you were saying like you wanted your life the meaning right and community and to to like almost in a way like that balance So now that becomes your value, right? In a way it it is, and that's what's guiding the way that you are living now, right? Is that became the North Star for you. And so now everything else revolves around that. So that that's what accountability means. It means that now my life revolves around my values instead of my values having to kind of adapt to my life.
Nikki Kinzer
Mm-hmm. You know, it's interesting because we we use accountability, you know, that word a lot. And I always found it and find it to be a partnership with people because one of the things that we do in our membership is we have an accountability anchor session room where you can go in and body double with people. And what I love about it is that it gives you that community, but it also know it lets you know you're not alone. Like I can do hard stuff with other people too. And I know they're doing hard stuff and we can do this together. And it's not that I am, you know, answering to these folks or they're answering to me. We're doing it together. And so there's just a partnership to that. I I feel that can be really meaningful
Dr. Nachi Felt
That is, and it's insightful because if you think about it, all of those people joining Right, are aligning themselves with the value, which is I want to get stuff done and I'm willing to put myself through this kind of like almost in a way like manually generated shame thing where I'm like trying to use the fact that you're here. Not shame. It's more of like a I don't know, what's a good word for it? It's like I guess accountability, right? That I I'm using you and you're using me so that we could align with our goals. Our goals are that we get our stuff done. And it started with that acceptance of ourselves that hey, I know it's harder for me to do it on my own.
Nikki Kinzer
Right, right, exactly, yeah.
Pete Wright
Yeah. Okay, so number three in the list, attention.
Dr. Nachi Felt
Yeah, so that was the accountability. So we went from alignment, right, which is identifying what what's meaningful to you and what matters to you to accountability, which is then making that matter to you, right? And kind of making your life revolve around that. In my book I walk you through how to do that through with something I call CSI, right? Which is creating schedule and intentionality where your schedule revolves around your values. It's a little bit of a shift, but once you do it, it's really cool because then your whole world kind of now flows in the direction that you wanted it to be going. Which is really, really nice. the third the third step there then becomes attention, and this is fascinating because attention Gets a bad rap. Pay attention, right? And like it's like something that we're always being asked to give. but if we zoom out, There's actually something super deep and beautiful about attention. And I I like bringing this out with like this kind of like imaginary case. What I'm going to be trying to argue for is that your attention is you. And I prove that, right, with this like imaginary question, which is imagine the person you love the most in this planet. Right? Think of that person, have it in your head. Right? Now imagine that person's being wheeled into the hospital and the doctors are telling you, we can only save their body or their brain. We only have We can only do one. They'll they'll still be alive and healthy, right? But we can only save one of them. Either their body's gonna function or their brain. Which one? You gotta tell us now.
Pete Wright
Yeah, well brain.
Dr. Nachi Felt
I I think most of us would choose right the brain.
Pete Wright
Yeah.
Dr. Nachi Felt
Like a it's a no-brainer, haha, right? We would choose the brain. I think all of us would. Now imagine as the right, so they write down your thing. Okay, yeah, sure. we have we have a slight problem. we w like if if we let the body go, right, that means they This person won't be able to hear you, see you, touch you. They'll know you're here. Their brain is working. They know you're there. They know you. Right? And they'll know you when you're there, but they can't touch you. They can't talk to you. You still want to go through with this.
Pete Wright
This is a horrible thought experiment.
Nikki Kinzer
I know
Dr. Nachi Felt
It's amazing. Stick with it.
Pete Wright
Okay. Yes, I still want to go through with it.
Dr. Nachi Felt
And how are you doing? Right? The answer doesn't change. Of course, right? Of course you do that. And this is the mind-blowing concept that hopefully will deepen your relationship with that person you're imagining. Ready? That means. That even if a person can't tell you I love you, even if they can't hold you or hug you or kiss you, you value their presence. That's what you love about this person. You just want their presence. That's it. And if you flip it around, Pete, that's all they want from you. Not I'm here, honey. What? yeah, yeah, I'll be there. What? Oh, so cool Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay. Right? That's not what they want. They just want your presence. They don't wanna they don't need it. They don't even need the hug. They don't need the kiss. They don't need the money, the gift. They just want your presence. Your attention is you. That is who you are. That's all that matters. And the rest of you, the body and the money, the success, the per all that doesn't really matter as much as who you are, your essence, just your your just the existence of your brain that you're you're aware, that you're present. That's all that matters, Pete. Was it worth it?
Pete Wright
We're yeah, totally. We're also so deeply conditioned that attention is currency. And I this is I'm w the reason I'm sort of I I fight it a little bit is because of that. That's cognitive dissonance. That you've just made attention something so loving and natural when We, I I speak royally here, we are used to seeing attention as something that is is paid and earned, and that is transactional.
Dr. Nachi Felt
Yeah, yeah, advertisers did that to us.
Pete Wright
Yeah. Yeah. And and the fact that we are constantly told that we are in deficit of it.
Nikki Kinzer
It's true, right, yeah.
Pete Wright
Right? Right. Right.
Nikki Kinzer
Yeah, yeah
Pete Wright
We are it it's like a s it's like a grand scolding.
Dr. Nachi Felt
Well, this is where it gets crazier, Pete. Now that I've redefined attention, I've also redefined ADHD.
Pete Wright
Yeah.
Dr. Nachi Felt
ADHD is not an attention deficit disorder, it's a self. deficit disorder.
Pete Wright
Okay, hold on
Dr. Nachi Felt
It's deep. It's deep.
Pete Wright
What are we what are we doing right now?
Dr. Nachi Felt
Isn't this crazy?
Nikki Kinzer
I feel like our the introduction needs to be like deep thoughts.
Pete Wright
Yeah.
Dr. Nachi Felt
It's the blog itself.
Pete Wright
It is Yeah, right. Well well, first of all, how does okay, so redefining ADHD is a self-deficit disorder. I feel like we haven't quite earned that yet because there is a fourth A.
Nikki Kinzer
Yeah, right.
Pete Wright
You dropped us on the third like deeply heartfelt A, and we haven't talked about attachment. Do we need attachment to talk about my self-deficit disorder?
Dr. Nachi Felt
No, once you realize that ADHD is a self-deficit disorder, then that's where attachment comes in. Because the way that a person is seen is through the other, right? As the Bible says, right? It isn't good for man to be alone. Well, women are like, yeah duh, these guys can't take care of themselves. Right? It's it's obvious talk about the human, right? It's not good for a human to be alone. We are social creatures. We are built to be supported by the other. We start out as this helpless tiny little creature. Right, being held in someone's arms, right, and like looking for their attention, looking for their love, looking for for their value that they give us. And usually if you're cute, they do give it, right? Like just you you giggled, you did anything and they went, Oh my god Right? Even when a baby farts, people go crazy, oh my god Right? I don't know, it doesn't happen now, I don't know. Maybe privilege. But like this idea of being valued as a little tiny human should, right, in a perfect world be happening throughout our life. That those people in our lives continue to value us and allow us to feel seen, to feel heard, to feel present. If you grow up without that, it could be pretty hard to feel present, right? If your whole life was a series of not good enough Right, then it's very hard to feel present. You didn't it makes sense that you'll go straight for the cue, that reminder of I don't know what to do here or I feel uncomfortable, right? Straight to let me check out and avoid being present with me because I don't know how to do that. It's not something I'm comfortable with yet. And that's where we lead to atten to attachment. Attachment is where when you are attuned aligned with what matters to you and you're Holding yourself accountable to those people and projects that are meaningful to you, and you're paying attention to the things that matter, you become more of you. And then you can be loved more, you can be seen more. The person in your life, right? That imagined person from our little exercise there. That person now has more of you and you have more of them because you are more present to see them, to be with them. And that's the last A is attachment. that when you could connect with yourself, you could then scaffold that social relationship with another human being and be seen by that person, which then enhances your alignment, right? And that's the cycle. It brings you right back to what matters to you, which is people. People matter
Pete Wright
I I love this and I I wanna I I I feel like I'm gonna need some more discussion on self-deficit disorder. But before I do that, how what happens when all of this runs headlong into the like the neurochemical parts of ADHD? Right. The parts where, you know, where we do, we started talking about this at the beginning, where we do find we get stuck, right? We are affected. with shame and the things that you know just happened because of the complexity that is ADHD exists.
Dr. Nachi Felt
Yeah, can I make the question a little bit more blunt?
Pete Wright
Please.
Dr. Nachi Felt
But wasn't I born this way? Right? This is what's it like what does this have to do with attachment and with how I was treated as a baby? I was just born with a messed up brain. Like what what are you talking about What is all this weird psycho babble? It's a great question. it is a really good question. and the answer is that it's a spectrum. Right. there obviously when you come into this world with one of our unique brains, right? So then you in a way are experiencing it differently than everyone else. But let's just walk it through, right? So you come into the world. Right, and you're seeing so much and you're stimulated by so much and you need so much thing, you're touching things and you're breaking things. How do the people around you respond? Let's imagine two different right worlds, right? So I don't know who wants to be the healthy home and which one of you wants to be the unhealthy one.
Pete Wright
Oh, well, I feel like I should be the healthy home in this case.
Nikki Kinzer
Oh
Dr. Nachi Felt
All right, Pete.
Pete Wright
I never I never get to be the healthy home, so
Dr. Nachi Felt
At least here you can. right, so in Pete's house
Pete Wright
I call dibs.
Dr. Nachi Felt
In Pete's house, right, that little boy or that little child, right, is treated with acceptance, humor, almost like laughing, right? This like joy and wonder at this child. Right. And every time you break something, there's this like laugh, oh, I guess we gotta lock that one up. Right. And like this almost like this deep pride in you just for you being you right versus let's say a kid gro sorry Nikki growing up in Nikki's house right where it's like damn it you broke that right I can't believe it this piece of garbage kid Right? You're always breaking everything. I'm just just think about it, folks.
Nikki Kinzer
Yeah, yeah
Dr. Nachi Felt
Right? How do you think that kid's gonna like the difference between these two children growing up in Pete's house versus growing up in Nikki's?
Nikki Kinzer
Yeah, the messages yeah, just horrible.
Pete Wright
Wow. Yeah.
Dr. Nachi Felt
I respect it.
Pete Wright
We internalize and and and we internalize the the sort of rudiments of those of of those feelings, of that anger or that frustration because we know eventually we've internalized that the reason they're mad is because they're scared of something.
Dr. Nachi Felt
Yeah.
Pete Wright
They're scared of being able to replace this thing. They're scared of what it means in their lives that their kid is a very good idea. breaks things, whatever. And we've they we've we're just inheriting that that fear, uncertainty, and yeah.
Dr. Nachi Felt
Or that things matter more than you. And and then it Makes sense that it's gonna be harder for you to be present with a you that wasn't loved, with a you that felt like it was always a piece of crap and never good enough and always ruining everything for everyone.
Nikki Kinzer
You know, I I also can see this in even adult relationships, like in marriages and partnerships, and right, because I I can see where an ADHD, you have an ADHD partner, you have a non-ADHD partner, and the criticism or the RSD that somebody might feel from their partner if they're not coming from a compassionate understanding acceptance. type of position and they're always blaming you or what how do you do this again? I can't trust you. Da da da da. Like that I can just see it continuing as a child all the way into adulthood and retirement years.
Dr. Nachi Felt
That's a person who may have a harder time being present in that relationship, being present With themselves. And the deficit of self, right? The self-desit deficit disorder robs you of everything else that's good in your life, right? Because then now your relationships start to falter, work. I don't know, like the real meaningful things in life. get affected by that. And even if Pete, could we go back to the question, right? Isn't it just like a brain chemistry thing where we do you have the executive functioning or not? Well, if you think about it, right, there's There's executive functioning really comes down to self-regulation, right? Being able to regulate yourself. If and let's just get deeper in that, right? We zoomed out, let's zoom all the way in, right? What is self-regulation? Right. So that would be it's working with your working memory, right? Which is being able to track what's happening, the fact that we're having a conversation now, that we're in a podcast, and We're being recorded, right? That's working memory, right? Anyone listening, right? That you're sitting in something. That's working memory. If you didn't have that, you you you wouldn't Like you wouldn't know where you are. so that's working memory. There's the idea of like impulse control or inhibitory or control, being able to stop yourself from doing something really dumb, being able to kind of direct yourself towards goal-oriented behavior. that those kind of things, right? And and all will determine emotional regulation. Because how do you calm yourself down? When you're in getting all super stressed out. It's using memory to be like, oh crap, I remember what happened the last time I lost it. That wasn't so great.
Pete Wright
And not only that, I remember that I have skills that I have practiced before that can help me regulate this.
Dr. Nachi Felt
Deep breathing, water in your face, whatever it might be.
Pete Wright
Right, right.
Nikki Kinzer
No. As soon as you said that, I am like the Pavlo's or Pavlov's dog
Pete Wright
Whatever it is.
Nikki Kinzer
Because as soon as you said, no, no, no, but as soon as you said, what do you do when you get stressed out? And then my immediate reaction was to breathe. I I mean it really it was.
Dr. Nachi Felt
Okay, very good.
Nikki Kinzer
Yeah.
Dr. Nachi Felt
A beautiful moment for me as a dad was when my son Jack
Nikki Kinzer
I I I took a breath.
Dr. Nachi Felt
He's three years old. He was doing, you know, like magnet tiles, right? So had this like magnetiles thing and and it it felt he he couldn't figure out like it kept falling. He was trying to make a certain tower like connected to the couch or something. And he kept like getting it falling and it was trying to get that piece just right and my wife's like, You could do this, Jackie, you could do this and all of a sudden he went And then he did it. I was so proud.
Nikki Kinzer
Oh, I bet.
Dr. Nachi Felt
Like this is it.
Nikki Kinzer
I'm proud of him.
Pete Wright
Yeah.
Dr. Nachi Felt
This is it.
Nikki Kinzer
Yeah.
Pete Wright
To the moon.
Nikki Kinzer
That's awesome.
Pete Wright
Are you kidding?
Nikki Kinzer
Yeah. It's so good.
Pete Wright
Yeah. Okay.
Nikki Kinzer
Yeah.
Pete Wright
All right.
Nikki Kinzer
All right. Self-deficit disorder
Dr. Nachi Felt
You heard it here. The new the new the re ADHD redefined
Pete Wright
I like it. I like it, I I'm sitting with it. I'm sitting with it. It is worthy of reflection. Tell me about the book.
Dr. Nachi Felt
The book guides you through this process of recognizing what robs us of ourself. And how to take it back, right? Which is really this is why alignment is so important, important and the cycle of accountability is so meaningful. It's because it gives you back your It lets you start asking those uncomfortable questions. What do I want? There's a me here. What does that mean? That me is valuable. And I like, and I like this point that I put in the book, which is that You were born with a right to matter. You were born, therefore you matter. Done. Right? And and what you want matters, your alignment matters, like your desires, your values, all that matters. You were born, therefore you matter. So it's almost like the Nietzsche line, right? I think, therefore I I th therefore I am. Right? So here's you were born, therefore you matter. Every human has this like tremendous, like incalculable worth. You matter just as a you you you you matter. And that's what I love about the attachment part is that my book kind of helps you tap into you that what do you really want from your life? And now when you go back to the cycles of clarity, right, to the cycle of ambiguity and the cycle of agency, These are not just like cool hacks to like get yourself to get your taxes done. These are tools and steps to help you reclaim yourself.
Pete Wright
Hmm, the book is Clear Headed, the ADHD Guide for Turning Overwhelm into Clarity, Calm and Control. When is it available?
Dr. Nachi Felt
We're hoping in December. we'll see. you know, with ADHD, I keep like re-editing it and my editor's like, Stop! Just stop editing!
Pete Wright
That's gonna that's gonna be a killer.
Dr. Nachi Felt
You know, right?
Pete Wright
Yeah. Yeah.
Dr. Nachi Felt
Because I always think of a better thing and no, I should have said this differently. But hopefully we'll try to get it out. Inhibitory control, right? I have to remember that. Stop. Just breathe it out. It'll be good enough. It's good enough. It doesn't have to be perfect. It just has to be good enough. Hopefully my book will be good enough
Nikki Kinzer
Oh, it's gonna be great.
Pete Wright
I I think it's going to be better than that.
Nikki Kinzer
Yes.
Pete Wright
I know that the cover is provocative. I adore it. I adore that it exists the way it exists. And I cannot wait to get my hands on it. Clear-headed. Thank you for hanging out with us today, Najee. Appreciate this.
Dr. Nachi Felt
My absolute pleasure. Always so much fun here. Where's Melissa?
Pete Wright
For sure. She's hanging out in the in the chat.
Nikki Kinzer
Yep.
Pete Wright
She's hanging out. She's she's just hanging out, running the running the show from the background, as she always does.
Nikki Kinzer
Yeah.
Pete Wright
Thank you everybody for downloading and listening to this show. We sure appreciate your time and attention. Make sure you chat. I'm going to put links. to the a book pre-site. You've got the book funnel page up where people can sign up for to get the first chapter.
Dr. Nachi Felt
For free, yeah.
Pete Wright
First chapter must be done.
Dr. Nachi Felt
The introduction walks you through the overview of the cycles of clarity. You basically get a rundown of this whole process in the intro.
Pete Wright
Yeah. And and you may be able to get it in its not yet final form because you it'll probably be edited again. So consider this.
Dr. Nachi Felt
Yeah. Like as we were talking, I'm like, I should put something about like redefining the self in the intro, but then like I feel like you ruined it, you know?
Pete Wright
But backstage pass.
Dr. Nachi Felt
Like
Pete Wright
Calls it like I sees it, baby. this is this is great. And so definitely the link will be in the show notes. Go sign up to be on that mailing list, but get notified when the book comes out in December, we hope. and check out all of Dr. Felt's work. Thank you so much for downloading the show. We if you have something to contribute to the conversation, we're heading over to the Show Talk channel in the Discord server. You can join us right there by becoming a supporting member at the Deluxe Level or better. Patreon dot com. slash the ADHD podcast. On behalf of Nikki Kinzer and Dr. Nachi Felt, I'm Pete Wright. And we'll see you right back here next week on Taking Control, the ADHD podcast.
