Approach Motivation, Round Two with Ari Tuckman, PsyD
Are you doing the thing because of what you'll get, or because of what you're afraid of? Both get the task done. Only one of them is sustainable.
This week, Dr. Ari Tuckman returns to talk about approach and avoidance, and why so many of us have only ever learned to start the second engine. We get into why avoidance works just well enough to become a habit, why "not as bad" is a ceiling rather than a goal, and what actually changes in a life that runs more on what you're moving toward.
Along the way: the difference between shame and embarrassment and why it matters more than it sounds, what to do at 8 a.m. on a Monday when everything on the list feels equally urgent, and the case for disappointing people early instead of late.
Links & Notes
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Pete Wright:
Hello, everybody, and welcome to Taking Control: The ADHD Podcast on TruStory FM. I'm Pete Wright, and I'm here with Nikki Kinzer.Nikki Kinzer:
Hello, everyone. Hello, Pete Wright.Pete Wright:
Hello, Nikki. Oh, it's a big one. It's a big one today. I think we're talking about motivation, and it's scary, because the more I thought about it as I was working on the outline, about what we need to talk about, all I could think about was, my God, that's me. My motivation — I think it may be inverted. We'll have to figure that out. I'm very excited to talk about it.And the guest we have back is an old favorite. Always great to explore.
Nikki Kinzer:
But not old.Pete Wright:
Not old. Old favorite, not old.Before we get started, I want to tell you about our Patreon community. Patreon is, if you're a regular listener, your next move. Members of our Patreon community get ad-free access to every episode a week early, access to members-only channels in our Discord server, and a seat in the live stream recording of the show, where you can ask questions directly to our guests and the chat as we record. Plus, we're always trying to throw in special events along the way for members.
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The world-famous Dr. Ari Tuckman is back with us today. He's a psychologist, an author, an international presenter who's given more than 600 talks and podcast interviews around the world. He is the author of some very important books in our world, including ADHD After Dark, Understand Your Brain, Get More Done, More Attention, Less Deficit, and The ADHD Productivity Manual. He's also so involved and invested with the assorted and sundry conferences that drive us forward in this field. Ari, welcome back. It's so good to see you.
Dr. Ari Tuckman:
I'm really happy to be here and hanging out with you guys. It's gonna be great.Pete Wright:
Well, I hope so. For me, I feel like you're going to out me. Last time you were here, we talked about — and this is going to sound obscure if you haven't just listened to the last episode — about whether you're doing the thing or not doing the other thing. And last time we sort of mapped what pushes us away. This time we're trying to address the other side of that conversation. And I'll say episode 3017 is the last time Ari was on. I'll put the link in the notes.So we've got these two different engines that can drive the exact same behavior. And from the outside they look identical. And that's maybe where some red flags should be thrown on the field. So are you doing your taxes because you want a refund, or are you doing your taxes because you're terrified of the letter that's going to come in the mail asking you for money? Those are the same action with completely different mechanisms. Set the table. What are you thinking when I talk about these things in that way?
Dr. Ari Tuckman:
I think this is a really important topic, and it's something I've thought a lot about. The idea kind of crystallized when I was writing the last book, The ADHD Productivity Manual: that the point of managing your ADHD is to add more of the good things to your life, not merely to avoid the negative. And that thing of, I'm doing the taxes so I don't get in trouble somehow — my spouse yells at me, or the IRS hits me with late fees, or whatever. Okay, sure, we want less negatives, but merely avoiding negatives doesn't make your life actually good. It only makes it not as bad. And not as bad is really not an awesome motivator. The problem is, not as bad will only get you to do the bare minimum to avoid the bad. And it makes for a bit of an empty life of, well, at least I didn't get my ass chewed out today. That can't be as good as it gets when you lay your head down to sleep.So I think that to the extent that you can find a motivator that's about adding something good — that once I get the taxes done, then I can do these other good things. Or I will feel good about myself, being a person who got my taxes done on time. Or I would like to enjoy the weekend with my spouse and not have them stressed out about the fact that the taxes haven't been finished yet. What are the good things that are going to get you to, frankly, suffer through the thing you don't want to do? But life is suffering sometimes.
Nikki Kinzer:
Have something to look forward to.Pete Wright:
And I think this is where we landed last time, which is that the avoidance works. That's our ADHD-brained trap, that it works often enough for a lot of us that it becomes, maybe habitually, the only engine that we know how to start.Dr. Ari Tuckman:
Right. The problem is, motivation by avoidance works sometimes. It's like, well, right now I feel better not thinking about it. Which you do. You're reading the situation correctly. The problem is that it's sort of hanging out there. It's like an axe over your neck that you're waiting to fall.But if we talk about taxes, hell, I've known people who haven't done their taxes in five years. I'm sure you guys know some of those people too. And the thing of it is, life keeps going. Every day, you don't get locked in jail because you didn't do your taxes for five years. So it's easy to say, well, I guess it's fine, whatever. I can just not deal with it again today. But then what happens is, to do these taxes this year, I gotta get all the other ones done. And that feels impossible. So it's even easier to add year six to the pile.
Nikki Kinzer:
I had a client just yesterday that was asking me — she said, I know what I need to do. And this was not about paying taxes or anything that had a strict deadline. It was cleaning her room. She's like, I know I need to clean my room, I know how to do it, I know what to do, but I'm not doing it.And what I see is, there's no deadline, there's no urgency. She's the one living in it, no one else is living in it. And like you said, it can wait until tomorrow, and it can wait until the next day, and it can keep waiting. So I know what I did, but I want to know what you would do. Ari, what would you do?
Dr. Ari Tuckman:
I guess what I would do is start with some questions. Including — and I think you set it up exactly right — what is her motivation to clean the room? Does she actually want a clean room, or does she feel like she should want a clean room? Wanting to want it is not the same as actually wanting it. So maybe that's a bit of it.I don't know, is she overwhelmed and doesn't know where to begin? Maybe that's what it is. And then if that's the case, let's break it down to, let's just pick up clothes off the floor, we'll start there. Or does it get all tangled up with shame and other failures, so that it all becomes emotionally too overwhelming? And if that's the case, then we're going to focus on ways to down-regulate our emotions and tolerate it a little bit.
So I don't know. I'd be wondering a lot of stuff. What did you do?
Nikki Kinzer:
I started with a lot of questions, like, what is it about the room that bothers you? When you say it's messy, what does that mean? Because I'm not in her room, so I don't know what that looks like.Dr. Ari Tuckman:
Sure.Nikki Kinzer:
And what was interesting is, she was saying, well, there's a lot of clothes and just a lot of stuff on the desk. And I'm like, okay, so are the clothes dirty? Are they just spread out? Well, I put them all in the hamper. She's like, well, it's not really the clothes. Because once you start getting them talking, they're processing it as they're talking it through.And she said, well, it's not really the clothes, it's the stuff on the desk. I'm like, all right, what are the things that are on the desk? And she names a few things. And I said, so do they have places? Do they have homes, that you can actually put them away? Well, some of it. I'm like, well, that's your friction. There we go.
Because what we're doing is we're dumping stuff down, which totally makes sense. She's a teacher, so she's got something in her bag, she doesn't know what to do with it, she's gonna put it on the desk. Completely makes sense. I said, but that's what's making it hard. You don't know where to put these things, and so they stay. And she's like, oh, that makes sense. And so we started breaking it down.
And I asked her some questions too about what it would feel like to make the room tolerable, because we're not looking to have it be clean all the time. It's not a cleanliness thing. And so we kind of talked about that. And the breakdown came to where she was gonna put away the stuff that had homes on the desk. And then everything else we were just going to put into a basket, because at least it corralled it and made it look less messy. But she didn't have to deal with it right now. So it was kind of a happy medium.
Dr. Ari Tuckman:
Yeah. But that's real progress.Pete Wright:
Yeah, in five years you're just gonna be able to throw it away. Just light it on fire.Dr. Ari Tuckman:
But I think it's interesting, what you did. It's easier to feel motivated for tasks that we feel competent at. And part of the problem was, she didn't feel competent. And I think the questions that you asked helped her sort out what she could do, and really what were her options, and what were the stuck points, and what can she do about it. And that made it feel much more manageable. So I think that is sometimes a piece of it.And where people get stuck is, I don't know that I can actually do this. So either figuring out, actually, you know what, I kind of can — or, who can I ask, or how do I figure out what I need to keep, or how could I store this. Or just being willing to face the discomfort of, I just need to slog through this and figure out what I want to do. I haven't figured it out yet, but I need to. I need to start making some hard choices or something.
So kind of tolerating the discomfort of it, and just recognizing that it doesn't mean I'm failing here. It's just, this is what the process is.
Nikki Kinzer:
And in that example too, I have to say, we didn't get into a lot of the emotional piece, because it wasn't emotional for her. It was more of just, this is messy and I don't like it being messy. I didn't get the sense that there was a shame component, but I think that's the exception. I think most of the time there is always kind of this shame underlying it, embarrassment, the shoulds that you started to talk about, and those kinds of things. So let's keep talking about it, because I think there's a lot of layers to it for sure.Pete Wright:
I have a question about that, though. Isn't just the act of feeling like I want to have it clean motivated by something for us that is — maybe don't call it shame, but there is something about being in that space that says, I don't like it here.Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah, right.Pete Wright:
I don't like it. What do we call that?I'm thinking about — so my daughter has been living all of their life in a bedroom that feels like it's in the forest floor of Hobbiton. It's just covered in sticks and filth. A real nature kid, and has always been collecting things from the outside.
And then one day, like a month ago, I didn't see them for three days. And at the end of that third day, I heard a vacuum cleaner. And I went upstairs and saw bag after bag of stuff ready to go. I saw a made bed. I saw surfaces of desks and dressers. And they said, I did not realize it, but at some point I decided I think I need to be a clean person, that I have a need not to live like this anymore. And it just was like a light switch. But I didn't put that on them. My wife didn't put that on them. It was a thing that they just arrived at.
Dr. Ari Tuckman:
Sure.Pete Wright:
Because they felt like — I think they might have a friend that would come over and see their room. And that extrinsic sort of motivation is, I don't know, if we don't call it just a little bit shame-motivating, I don't know what we call it.Dr. Ari Tuckman:
So I think this is a great example. And this is a bit subtle. And it is the person in the situation who is the one who has to say. So it could be shame-motivated, in terms of what you're describing. If it's, I would be mortified for my friend to come over and see this, then it is about avoiding shame. And let's be honest, a little bit of being concerned about embarrassment does keep us all kind of more civil and polite and perhaps better people. To some degree, a little bit of that.But the way you describe it, at least, it sounds more like — like you said, there is this sort of evolution in their personality, and where they are in their life, and a sense of, this is more the person I want to be. I'm gonna act now in accordance with that. And that to me feels like going towards something positive, rather than avoiding the negative of shame. Because I think there's an element there that they would have done it even without the concern that a friend is going to come over and judge them.
Pete Wright:
Yeah, I can see that. I also think that part of what you're connecting to is a discussion of the evolution of our personal values. Like I suddenly wake up and my frontal lobe is a little bit more developed than it was yesterday, and now I value this state of greater organization. And sometimes finding values, and letting them drag you into a new you, is awesome. They are also abstract and future tense. And I think for the ADHD brain in general, that's challenging. I'm curious how both of you approach that with folks.Nikki Kinzer:
Well, I kind of want to go back to being embarrassed versus shame, because to me those are two kind of different things.Pete Wright:
No, talk about that. That's not my internal mechanism. Explain the difference.Nikki Kinzer:
Oh, okay. Because when you said, how is that not shame-motivated, my first instinct was, but it doesn't have to be. I will clean my house before somebody comes in, because I would be embarrassed for them to see how we really live. But I don't go into the shame mode of, oh my God, I'm a bad person if I don't do this. I am bad, and therefore I shouldn't even have these people as my friends. I don't go there. I go to just, this would be embarrassing. I look at it as two separate feelings.Pete Wright:
Are they on a spectrum? Like, you arrive at embarrassment before you arrive at shame?Nikki Kinzer:
I really see them as separate.Pete Wright:
Interesting.Dr. Ari Tuckman:
I think the difference is this, and I'm glad you're kind of highlighting the difference, because I agree. I do think it actually is really important. I think shame is, if they saw how messy the house was, it would reveal the person I really am. That I am flawed and unable to, I don't know, whatever. Embarrassment is the idea that this doesn't align with who I am and how I want to be. That I see myself as someone who lives in a neater house. I would like to live in a neater house. I know that brings out the best for me and my family, or whatever. And I'm not living in accordance with that.So I can be embarrassed for myself in an empty room. Just me. But if a friend saw it, I'd be even more. It just really puts a spotlight on the disconnect between my desired way of being and values, and the way that I'm actually living. So I think that's the important difference, if that makes sense.
Pete Wright:
Okay. I can adjust to that. I've always seen it as sort of like we're on the same road. But that makes sense.I do want to go back to this values conversation, because I think that connects directly to this. What is it that you're working toward? What is it that is pulling you forward? And I know you've talked a lot about future consequences and how that becomes a motivating factor. So how does that play into the approach mechanism?
Dr. Ari Tuckman:
Yeah. Well, like you said, it does get pretty abstract. This thing of, what kind of person do I want to be, or living aligned with my values. That's pretty heady stuff. And the temptation of the moment can easily overwhelm that. But nonetheless, I do think there is maybe something there of thinking beyond just, what is the payoff for it? If I clean my room, I will feel much more relaxed here. I'll feel more effective. I can do stuff. If somebody drops by, I can feel okay about it. All the good things that come of it, in maybe a little bit more of a tangible way.But I do think there is something to be said for leaning into our values when it comes to doing the harder thing in the moment. And that sometimes, especially when a more tangible reward is a bit too far down the road, so that it isn't particularly motivating — there's something about, how do I want to be in the world? How do I want to show up? And whether anybody else knows it or not, I feel good about the fact that I did that harder, better thing in this situation. And that has some maybe immediate impact.
Pete Wright:
That's a really interesting one, because it makes me think about, again, the taxes example. Some people are greatly motivated by getting it done so they don't have to think about it. Some people are motivated by not wanting to fall afoul and get the letter. Some people are not motivated. It's really hard to motivate a negative. I am not interested in doing my taxes so that I don't get a letter. That's no reward. That's just an indefinite scale of time until we're all food for worms. That doesn't satisfy my response, and I find that challenging.Dr. Ari Tuckman:
Yeah, and what it speaks to is that people are complicated. We have competing desires and hopes and whatever, and what works for one does not work for another. This is why — hell, it's why I have a job. It's why Nikki has a job. It's why all our friends who are therapists and coaches have jobs. It's why this podcast gets listens, because there's not one way of doing it. You didn't have one episode: hey everybody, here's the one thing you need to know about ADHD. Well, that's it. We got no more content.Pete Wright:
Yeah, hang it up.Dr. Ari Tuckman:
Right, exactly.Pete Wright:
If only.I want to talk about some practical structural stuff, because last time we talked about approach motivation in the form of the list of things that we have to do in our lives, and deleting things without doing them. I think a lot of folks who are listening might be saying, I get it. I get that people are complicated. I get that values-driven motivation is really hard, and there should be some guardrails, because sometimes, as you said, we have to learn to do hard things. But also it's 8 a.m. Monday morning. What do I do? How do I approach the things that I'm looking at on this list right now?
And some of that is a mental model thing, and some of that is a practical organizing-my-time-and-space thing. And I'd like to pull apart both sides of that from both of you. How do you approach that argument with folks sitting across from you?
Dr. Ari Tuckman:
And it's hard. I've spent a lot of time thinking about it. I don't think there are any clear answers in this, in the sense that — there you are, 8 a.m. on Monday. There are all sorts of different things you can do. Stuff about work, stuff in your personal life, stuff about self-care, stuff about other people. So how do we decide what is the one thing I'm gonna do right now? I have no idea how that neuroscience works.But in the bigger picture, I think it's about having some sort of clarity about what is important to me, what am I working towards. And then using that to guide: yes, this will get some of my time, or no, this won't, or this will get a little bit but not much, or this thing comes before that thing. So that we can prioritize and figure out what we do in each next moment.
And I think with some clients, what I've found is, when they're just drowning and scrambling all the time, they don't really have that bigger-picture goal in mind. So they're doing a lot of things, but they're not necessarily the best things. It often becomes very reactive to whatever's coming at them. And they haven't yet figured out a rubric for saying, okay, yeah, this makes the cut. And that is a nice idea, but it ain't gonna happen. Instead, they're just saying yes to whatever hits them the loudest.
Nikki Kinzer:
And I think for ADHDers, the problem too is that everything feels urgent. So it's really hard to decide what takes our time, because everything feels like it has the same sense of urgency.And I love that you were talking about a rubric, because we'll put the download in the show notes. We have a download about when everything feels urgent, and here are some things you can do to have a rubric, to have a framework to begin with.
And I think it's that, if I'm coaching someone, it's pausing for a moment and just taking a breath. Not everything has to have your attention. Not everything that is being bounced at or thrown at you, you need to catch. Some of it you can let go. And so it's that pause for a moment of just resetting that nervous system a little bit, and then being able to sift through it.
Because the reality is, we can't do everything. But when we can't figure out what to do next, we do nothing, or we do the wrong thing that we think is wrong. And then the shame comes, because we did the wrong thing. It's this cycle that keeps coming back.
Pete Wright:
Or we do what interests us. That's the guardrail part. We do the thing that sparks joy.Nikki Kinzer:
Sure.Pete Wright:
And that's really dangerous, because that's another habit to build. I find, if I were to let myself only do the things that are really interesting to me, I would get a lot of interesting things done and miss so much that I couldn't figure out how to machine into that interest matrix.Nikki Kinzer:
Well, and that's kind of breaking the pattern of all or nothing too — that you can still do something fun and still do something hard on the same day, even in the same morning, even in the same hour. And that is hard to remember.Pete Wright:
It's really hard to remember. Maybe it's because you're embarrassed that you haven't written an email or made a phone call, or you're ashamed that you missed a deadline. See, look at how I'm doing this. I'm balancing two concepts that I just learned. [Content gap in the source recording — see spot-check item 3.] If I can stop in 30 minutes. I wonder if I can stop in 30 minutes. The cascading fall of dominoes that leads me away from doing the hard thing is the struggle of moving toward just getting the next thing done structurally.Dr. Ari Tuckman:
Well, and again, this is where it gets complicated. It's not just the one task in isolation. It's always in relation to everything else that's perhaps there to be done. It's all this sort of, what happened before and how is that spilling forward, and what's our mood, and what's our energy level.But I think it gets, especially with ADHD, and/or if you just have way too much going on in your life — there's that feeling of, there are so many things that I am behind on, that I should have done, that really need to be done, and I haven't done them yet. And there's that never-catching-up kind of a feeling. And it makes it feel like whatever you do, it may not be the wrong thing, but it wasn't the right thing. Or there are four right things.
So I think that in those cases, some of the work is beginning to get a bit of breathing room. So like you said, Nikki, you can actually take a moment and think about it. Let me actually consider my options here. But that can feel like a luxury when you have 50 things that all have to be done.
Nikki Kinzer:
I imagine somebody being in quicksand, and they just keep getting deeper and deeper into it, as much as they're trying to get out of it.Dr. Ari Tuckman:
Yeah, and the faster they struggle, the faster they sink.Pete Wright:
In your experience working with folks directly, what changes in a life that runs more on approach than on avoidance? I imagine the answer is not, well, they get a lot more done. I have to imagine it's more substantive than that.Dr. Ari Tuckman:
In some ways they get more done, but maybe more to the point, they get more of the better things done. And I'm gonna say better, not right, because it's not right or wrong. I think it's better or worse, or better or not as good. And I think they feel a bit better about what they're doing. It feels more meaningful. There feels like there's more of a reward to it. And it's not overly driven by fear or anxiety — I gotta do this so I don't get in trouble, kind of thing.So I think that. I don't know, that's what I would think. What would you guys say?
Nikki Kinzer:
I think the same thing. I think that there's less fear, more confidence that when you don't get everything done, or the day doesn't go as planned, there's more confidence in believing that that's okay, and that it will happen when it happens. So I think there's a little bit of letting go, permission of letting go. And so there's a little bit of freedom to that.And with that being said, though, there's also awareness that you still have ADHD. This list is still gonna get long. You're still gonna get overwhelmed. You're still gonna get distracted. Things are still gonna take longer than what you expect. All of these things are still going to happen, but it's how you respond to them that is different now. And I think that makes a big difference.
Pete Wright:
One of the things I'm reflecting on as I listen to both of you talk is that, as infinite as my brain may be, I do often find I have a limited number of things I can focus on. And when I am focusing on the constant lengthening of the list, and the potential for missed opportunities, missed calls, dropped deadlines, I'm focusing on dread. And when I focus on approach motivation — the larger context of this conversation, focusing on the things that I want out of the next thing that I do — I'm allowing the stuff that I want to push the dread aside, because there isn't room for both in my brain at the same time.And that's a little bit refreshing, that there's some agency in moving the negative stuff out and replacing it. As long as I have something to replace it with that I'm looking forward to, that I get out of the next thing, then I can massage even the hard stuff into figuring out something positive.
A lot of it, I think, is going to come down to the language that I use in documenting the things I need to do that aren't pleasant. "Do the damn taxes" is probably not the right way to put it on my task list. Those little tweaks of language, I think, probably are going to matter. Does any of this resonate with you guys?
Dr. Ari Tuckman:
Yeah, absolutely. And I think there's a bit of a distinction here, where you say you've got all this stuff that you need to do. There is the doing of the task, or each of these tasks, but there's also a task of evaluating all your different tasks and thinking about what comes first and what comes last, and how much time do I give it, and can I do this one later, or should I do these together? Or, actually, as long as I'm out doing this, I should also do that.So it's the planning and prioritizing of the other tasks — that is a task unto itself. To sort of figure it out and maybe make some hard choices. But I think there can be a reduction in stress from feeling like, okay, I thought about it and I have something of a plan here, as opposed to this loose wild mess that's just hanging over me.
Nikki Kinzer:
Right, right. And reacting to everything that's just coming in.Dr. Ari Tuckman:
And there may be an element of, hey, I know I said I'd get you that, but I got jammed up, and hopefully by the end of the week — as opposed to, I hope he doesn't send me an email pissed that I didn't get it to him.Nikki Kinzer:
And I think that's the dread. I think you just explained what the dread is that Pete's talking about.And we talked about our four D's a while back, which — are five D's?
Pete Wright:
Five D's.Nikki Kinzer:
Is there five?Pete Wright:
I think there are five.Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah, there's five now. There are five, because we're going to talk about the fifth one, which is disappointment. And this is something Casey Dixon had shared with us many years ago, and that has just stuck. It's better to disappoint now, right now, than later, or when it's already too late.Pete Wright:
Yeah, because the fear is getting caught.Nikki Kinzer:
And so if the fear is getting the email of, where is this? But if we can stop that by communicating right up front — you're not gonna get it this week, I'm gonna give you an update next week, without even promising anything — that feels a lot different. And so I think it is kind of thinking about how we reframe that, which is hard. Don't get me wrong. I get it. Because in the moment, just like Ari talked about earlier, in the moment avoidance works. Because right now it feels fine.Dr. Ari Tuckman:
Well, it's emotionally uncomfortable to tell someone, yeah, I'm not gonna get that thing for you. And especially if you've lived with undiagnosed, untreated ADHD for many, many years, you have too many of those experiences of disappointing people, and not for good reason.So it feels like you've used up all your disappointing chips already, and you just got to say yes to everything. Or this is the final straw where the friendship ends, or they fire you, or they — I don't know, send you off the island, or whatever happens.
So yeah, I use the same line: disappoint early. Because if you disappoint early, they can make other plans. If you wait for the last minute, they can't. And that might be the thing they're pissed about. If you had told me three days ago, I would have done something else, but now I can't. And it makes it look like you dropped the ball, as opposed to you made a strategic assessment and decision.
But I think even what you said — I'll let you know next week. Sometimes that needs to be part of the conversation. Oh, I can't do this thing. Am I going to let you know that I can? Are you going to check in with me? Because who's owning it is an important part.
And if it's left unspecified, that can set up later trouble. So you're sitting there and you're like, goddammit, he never got that to me. He never even reached out. And I'm sitting there, well, I don't know, maybe I'm not even thinking about it at all.
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah, right, exactly.Dr. Ari Tuckman:
It's nowhere on my radar. But it also depends who's doing who a favor. If I'm doing you a favor by sending you something, I don't know, I think you should own it, and the ball's in your court. Check in with me in a couple days. But if there's something I owe you, and I'm supposed to get it to you, then I think it should probably be more with me. But regardless, it's probably better if it's discussed and agreed.Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah, for sure.Pete Wright:
I feel like we need disappointment challenge coins. You know, the culture of challenge coins, like you present it at a bar and you get a free drink or something. I think it would be great to be able to just say, here's my challenge coin. I'm gonna disappoint you today, but I still love you.Nikki Kinzer:
Absolutely.Pete Wright:
Oh my goodness. All right.Ari, you just said your latest book is The ADHD Productivity Manual. Are you already working on another one? Because you only have about 900 books out. I have to imagine there's something in the queue.
Dr. Ari Tuckman:
Right, right. You know, I'm doing so much presenting and so many podcast interviews like this, that that's where all my time is going. But I'll write another book. It's just not right now.Nikki Kinzer:
Tell us about the marriage workshop that you're doing, because that I'm interested in, and I'm sure that our audience will be too.Dr. Ari Tuckman:
Yeah, so I'm doing a 13-week — believe it or not, 13-week — webinar series with Melissa Orlov and another therapist who's part of her team, Rachel Ban. And it's called Taking Action: Relationship Skills for the ADHD Partner. So it's all about basically how to show up in a better way in your relationship when you have ADHD. We cover all sorts of stuff, from basic self-care so you can bring your better self to things, to emotional regulation, getting stuff done, what's your anger style, negotiating disagreements.So, 13 weeks. We'll sort of check in with everyone at the start. We'll present some stuff. We'll discuss it. Set up some homework or other things that you can do in between. And then we'll come back next week, and away we go.
I think it's going to be really cool. There's really nothing out there like this. So I'm looking forward to it. It's super fun. I've been working on the slides.
Nikki Kinzer:
That's great. Well, we'll put the link in the show notes.Pete Wright:
For sure. And I love how chill you are presenting it.Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah. Get it out there.Pete Wright:
You guys, the wisdom that comes from Ari's presentations is not to be undersold.Nikki Kinzer:
Well, and you're getting two others — not only Ari, but you're getting Melissa Orlov, and you're getting the other therapist. Oh my gosh, mind blowing. I'm sure it's gonna be great.Pete Wright:
That's fantastic. Link in the show notes. And thank you for being here again.Dr. Ari Tuckman:
Awesome, thanks.Pete Wright:
We just so appreciate you, every time you come by and give us something new and wonderful to think about. Links to all of Ari's properties and books in the show notes, and we'd love you to go check those out. You definitely can't go wrong by investing more time in Ari's work.So thank you, everybody, for hanging out with us today. We sure appreciate you downloading and listening to this show. Thank you for your time and your attention. Don't forget, if you have something to contribute to the conversation, we're heading over to the Show Talk channel in our Discord server, and you can join us right there by becoming a supporting member at the Deluxe level or better. On behalf of Nikki Kinzer and Ari Tuckman, I'm Pete Wright, and we'll see you right back here next week on Taking Control: The ADHD Podcast.
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