Overcoming Motivation Challenges with ADHD with Dr. Tamara Rosier
In this week's episode of Taking Control: The ADHD Podcast, hosts Nikki Kinzer and Pete Wright interview Dr. Tamara Rosier about motivation and ADHD. Dr. Rosier, author of "Your Brain's Not Broken," shares insights from her experiences as an ADHD coach and professor to uncover motivation strategies for those with ADHD.
As Dr. Rosier explains of those living with ADHD, "There is really no research explaining our success in the modern world." Her book aims to send a "love letter" to those struggling, affirming that "You're okay. And I know it feels hard for you, but you're still okay."
The hosts dive into the complicated relationship between ADHD and motivation. Dr. Rosier notes that while ADHD can make people appear self-centered as they struggle to survive, most "are incredibly sensitive" and "heart forward." Pete adds that ADHD allows people to "forget the important things"—like basic needs—while seeking self-actualization. Dr. Rosier agrees this makes success especially difficult, as "easy things are very difficult" for those with ADHD, yet they still accomplish much.
To build motivation, Dr. Rosier suggests first assessing your values—why something matters. She coaches Nikki to uncover beliefs like "I should enjoy cooking" that create pressure. Next, acknowledge the difficulty but willingness to do hard things. Tie actions to values, not beliefs that demotivate. Dr. Rosier advises imagining your future self; what actions would serve them well? For her, laying out morning clothes helps future Tamara. Finally, notice existing successes instead of dismissing them. Despite feeling inconsistent, for example, Pete already walks his dog each and every morning.
While discussing motivation, Dr. Rosier exposes thought patterns that sabotage us. Beating yourself up rarely helps. Instead, start by naming emotions and difficulties without judgment. Accept dissonance between wants and responsibilities. Motivation takes self-awareness, values exploration, and celebrating every step forward.
Here are a few key takeaways:
How ADHD impacts motivation and success
Steps to take to understand and build motivation
How to shift from self-judgment to self-acceptance
Strategies to uncover motivation blocks like beliefs
The importance of aligning actions with values
Ways to celebrate small consistency wins
With compassionate insight, Dr. Rosier exposes why motivation is so complex yet possible. This inspiring episode explores practical strategies to overcome motivation challenges. Anyone seeking to understand themselves and build motivation from within will find this a thoughtful listen.
Links & Notes
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Pete Wright:
Hello everybody, and welcome to Taking Control, the ADHD podcast on True Story FM. I'm Pete Wright, and I'm here with Nikki Kinzer.
Nikki Kinzer:
Hello everyone. Hello, Pete Wright.
Pete Wright:
Oh, Nikki, can I just do a thing? We're recording this a bit early. When this goes out, what will the date be? It'll be, oh, the 16th, just next week, which is, oh my God, halfway through National Novel Writing Month.
Now, I'm mentioning this because we have some people in our community who are writing along with us, and I am writing along and I'm on pace, but I did a thing like I wasn't happy and then I watched a TV show, which I didn't realize was actually the book I was writing, and I was so flummoxed-
Nikki Kinzer:
Oh no.
Pete Wright:
... that last night, I blew it up. I effectively, it was Hannibal's march to the sea. I lit everything on fire, and now it's a new book with, I don't even know if it's going to be salvageable, but I'm writing every day and that's just what I want to celebrate, every day, I'm on pace. Things are fine, even if they're on fire.
Nikki Kinzer:
Okay. So I'm really, I need to make sure I understood you correctly. You have started to write a book in the last week, and you just found out yesterday that the book that you were going to write is about a TV show that already exists? So you're not going to write that book anymore?
Pete Wright:
I've got to change something.
Nikki Kinzer:
You have to change something?
Pete Wright:
So I blew it up.
Nikki Kinzer:
Can you just change it a little bit and make it a little different?
Pete Wright:
I don't even know.
Nikki Kinzer:
Or are you just going to do a brand new idea?
Pete Wright:
Burn it down. Start again Nikki Kinzer.
Nikki Kinzer:
Wow.
Pete Wright:
I'm very excited about it.
Dr. Tamara Rosier:
It's the ADHD way.
Pete Wright:
Our guest is chiming in.
Dr. Tamara Rosier:
Why go small if you can go big.
Pete Wright:
Yes. Why go small when you can go big.
Nikki Kinzer:
It's really true. Yeah.
Pete Wright:
This goes back to the Modern Family episode from a long time ago where they were having so much trouble and Phil always goes to extremes, right? And at the end of the episode, the punchline is, "Kids we're going to Italy!" That has become the catchphrase around our house. And so when I climbed in bed last night, my wife said, so how'd it go? I said, "Kira, I'm going to Italy." She's like, "Oh no."
Nikki Kinzer:
Oh no.
Pete Wright:
But I'm still on pace, so I'm pretty excited about that. So to everybody who is writing along in National Novel Writing Month, congratulations for just showing up and doing it, and that's the thing to celebrate. Very, very excited to be doing this right along with you all. So that's the news halfway through, you can do this.
Now, we have a great show I think planned. Would you like to just dig right in? Do you have any news?
Nikki Kinzer:
Sure.
Pete Wright:
Should I just stop talking about my burning it down plans?
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah, let's go for it.
Pete Wright:
All right, let's do it. Head over to Take Control ADHD.com to get to know us a little bit better. That's the drill. You know the drill. You can listen right there on the website or you can subscribe to the mailing list, and we will send you an email with the latest episode each week. You can connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, or Pinterest at Take Control ADHD. But to really connect with us, join us in the ADHD Discord community. And I just said it, that's the big perk. We have a big nano [inaudible 00:03:13] group hanging out with us and navigating their ADHD while writing a massive writing project, and it's pretty fun to have that going on at the same time.
So that's really what we're all about, is figuring out not just how to learn more about your ADHD, but how to learn more about your relationship with the world with ADHD. And sometimes that means doing other stuff with ADHD, with people who get it right alongside you. That's what the community is all about.
If you're really interested in investing in yourself and the community, head over to Patreon. That's patreon.com/theADHDpodcast, for just a few bucks a month, you'll support the ongoing development of this show and all the stuff we do. You'll support the Discord community, the group that we're building over there, and you'll get access to all kinds of secret stuff. There's secret doors around every corner, and Patreon will help you unlock them and see them and have some fun with them. So we invite you to do that. patreon.com/theADHDpodcast. Thank you so much for our current subscribers and for newbies who are just thinking about it. Water's warm. Come on in.
Dr. Tamara Rosier has been a college administrator, a professor, a leadership consultant, a high school teacher, a business owner, and an ADHD coach. Today, she joins us to talk about motivation and ADHD and how her adventures have led to found the ADHD Center of West Michigan and write her book, Your Brain's Not Broken. Tamara, welcome to the ADHD podcast.
Dr. Tamara Rosier:
I love being here with the two of you. You guys are great. So thanks for having me today.
Nikki Kinzer:
Thank you.
Dr. Tamara Rosier:
We had this whole plan, and then this morning I got a message from Nikki and she says, "I'm burning it down. We're changing the plan." Would you like to set us up, Ms. Kinzer?
Nikki Kinzer:
Well, yes, because...
Dr. Tamara Rosier:
What do you have to say for yourself, Nikki?
Nikki Kinzer:
Why did I change course at such a last minute. I know. Well, because Tamara, you wrote this wonderful book called Your Brain's Broken.
Pete Wright:
No, it's not.
Dr. Tamara Rosier:
No, it's not Broken.
Pete Wright:
Tamara is a real advocate for hard talk.
Nikki Kinzer:
Oh my God, I cannot believe I just said that. And I'm so glad that you caught it right away.
Pete Wright:
That one was hard to miss.
Dr. Tamara Rosier:
That's not the message at all. That's the anti message. That is not what we're talking about. I'm okay. You're okay. We're all okay.
Nikki Kinzer:
Oh my God, that's so funny.
Dr. Tamara Rosier:
Thank you. Okay.
Nikki Kinzer:
Your brain is not broken. It is not. Yes. You do not need to be fixed. That's right. Okay. Oh my gosh, that's crazy. All right, so getting back to what we were going to talk about and why I switched gears.
Pete Wright:
Amazing.
Nikki Kinzer:
Because so much of what you write in this book, it is a lot about motivation. It is a lot about emotion that is coming up with ADHD and really helping people accept that, yeah, some of this stuff that feels like it would be easy is not. And that's where I really wanted to follow, because our series right now is around planning. And I have a lot to say about planning. I have a membership about it. I know a lot about it, but there's another piece to planning that is doing what you plan and actually getting some things done, especially when you don't feel like doing it.
And so that's where I really wanted to take a detour is let's talk about motivation and ADHD and how it affects what we do on a daily basis and how we feel about ourselves.
Dr. Tamara Rosier:
Thank you. And again, no one's brain is broken here.
Nikki Kinzer:
No one's brain is broken.
Dr. Tamara Rosier:
I'm sorry. I'm just giving you cred now. Sorry. I couldn't help it.
Pete Wright:
I think the answer, Tamara, is no one's brain is broken yet. Give it time.
Dr. Tamara Rosier:
Maybe mine is. Just a quick side note. One time, I really can't multitask at all where some people can a little bit. And I was signing books and I was signing it: "Your brain's not broken, Tamara." Well, one of my former students came up to me and said, "Can I sign your book?" I'm so excited to see him. I'm talking and I signed" "Your brain's broken! Tamara."
And then all of sudden I realized what I did and I had to call him back and go, "Dude, dude, just hand me your book quick." And they put a little carrot, but, "Not." Somewhere there's a collector's edition of Tamara telling someone their brain is broken, and then correcting it. So I just want you to know, Nikki, I've done this same thing.
Pete Wright:
Power motivational hitter. That Tamara Rosier. Power motivational hitter.
Dr. Tamara Rosier:
I actually did though, in all seriousness, the title Your Brain's Not Broken is so important to me because I wrote this whole book because I work with very smart, talented people who are just walking around aching because they can't figure out how to do things. And that's why it's titled that. And so the book is like, it's a love letter to all those clients I'll never meet, going, "You're okay. And I know it feels hard for you, but you're still okay. And yeah, the easy things are really hard for you. And look at you."
Something I often say, and I know you guys are, you have a very smart audience, but something I always say is easy things are very difficult for you and vice versa. There is no evidence that a person with ADHD should succeed. Yet look around you. We're everywhere. And we're succeeding.
Pete Wright:
You need to say that one more time because I'm laughing to hide the tears. There is no evidence.
Dr. Tamara Rosier:
I'll get lighter. I promise we won't be as depressing, but I want people to really understand how hard this is. There is really no research explaining our success in the modern world. Yeah, we're divergent thinkers and we're really good divergent thinkers, but that can just leave us lost in a maze if we don't learn how to manage it.
Pete Wright:
Well, and this gets to what I think is a real challenge, and I think for one of the things I think we see in the community is that part of the reason that ADHD planning and motivating is so frustrating is that when you say the easy things are hard and the hard things are easy, they're different hard and easy things for everybody.
Like I happen to be great at planning and crappy at executing on time and on schedule, but other people don't have plans at all and get a lot of stuff done, but frustrate everyone around them because they're seat of their pantsing.
Dr. Tamara Rosier:
And that's why I start with that because I want you to know, I go to a conference in Florida, it's not just because it's in Florida in January, but that does have a lot to do with the decision. But it's called APSARD, and it's mainly for MDs to talk about ADHD. And the hard science they present. I'm like, "Oh, what's a cohends? Oh, right cohends. And I have to reequate myself to heavy stats.
And I sit there and I listen to these people talk about me in the most depressing ways. And there's times I have to leave and go, "Okay, but I did write a book. Right? Okay, somehow I did something." And I'm telling you that because it's disorienting when you read the research. But it's also sobering for us because I would love for us to start to look at ourselves as in spite of it all, we're heroes.
I mean, we're heroes who do dumb things, but we're heroes. And so we're like, this is a dated reference, but we're Evil Knievel, right?
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah.
Dr. Tamara Rosier:
For those of you guys who are really young, Evil Knievel was a crazy person who would jump canyons, and do it, and that's the kind of hero we are. So I just want to remember before we get into the motivation that there's no reason for us to succeed, and yet we are. I mean, everyone should be patting themselves on back like, "Wow, I'm not the hot mess I thought I was two seconds ago," but don't worry, that'll come back to you. And you'll just-
Pete Wright:
In two more seconds. Yeah.
Dr. Tamara Rosier:
You'll have to chase it away again, and I'm sorry I'm making a joke about it, but a lot of us carry the weight of always feeling like a failure. "A day late, a dollar short." And so I want to be careful, that's why I'm setting up motivation carefully, because motivation's not an easy concept. And if I go, "Just do it this way," you're going to have your listeners taking out their shoes and throwing them across the room.
And so I want to be careful, that you guys are already doing things. And so the first step for motivation is what are you already doing well what do you seem to do? I find potato chips really well, it's a spiritual gift, really. Yeah.
Nikki Kinzer:
But it's asking that question and bringing it out to the open because I think so many people hide it or they don't see it. It's not even them hiding it, they just don't see where they're succeeding and where they're doing well.
Dr. Tamara Rosier:
I'm going to tell a story about a friend of mine, Brendan, one time he said something, we're at the ADHD conference. "I have to go here." And he's like, "Oh, you're such an overachiever." And of course we're ADHD yelling this across. I'm going down the escalator, he's on the top. And I was actually really angry and I've told him about this. This is why I feel like I can share it publicly. I was angry. How dare you call me an overachiever.
Pete Wright:
Why? Why did that affect you?
Dr. Tamara Rosier:
I felt like, follow me around. I'm an underachiever. It's a miracle I put pants on today.
Pete Wright:
Tamara looks down and checks pants.
Nikki Kinzer:
Just make sure I have them. Yes.
Pete Wright:
Yep. Check for pants. Roger. Pants.
Dr. Tamara Rosier:
At least from here up, so we're good. We're good. But it's interesting how visceral I had, and that tells you the weight I still carry, even though I work hard on my ADHD, the weight I carry. So as we're talking about this, we want to separate how we feel about ourselves and how we motivate ourselves.
And this is actually an important point because I had this 20-year-old who's just such a delightful little egghead. He said, "Well, I'm trying to figure out how to motivate myself." I'm like, "Oh, that's great. Let's talk about it." He's like, "Well, I've tried to bribe myself. That doesn't work. I see through it every time." I'm like, "Yeah, you do. You can't lie to yourself." And he's like, "I tried to punish myself." He's like, "Well, that doesn't seem right to me." I'm like, "Well, no, that's because you're hurting yourself."
He's like, "I tried shaming myself," which is another form of punishment, "and that doesn't work because I just feel worse." And so I'm like, "Well, then how are you going to do it?" He looked at me, he goes, "I have no clue." And that's where most of my clients are. They're like, "I've tried the bad things and I have no clue."
Nikki Kinzer:
Right. And that shaming, I think is just a cycle that just keeps getting refreshed every single time this comes up. So what do we do? What's next? What do we do?
Dr. Tamara Rosier:
So what do we do?
Nikki Kinzer:
How do we deal with this?
Dr. Tamara Rosier:
So there's a couple things. I'm not going to leave you guys hanging with. "Hey, look, there's no research saying we should succeed and..." Right?
Nikki Kinzer:
Right.
Dr. Tamara Rosier:
I want people to really understand this is really hard, and we're tempted to motivate ourselves in all the wrong ways. And by the way, I have a PhD because between self-loathing and being angry with a professor, that's how I finished my program. I wouldn't recommend it. I developed eye twitches. I had PTSD from the whole thing. I wouldn't recommend that way of motivation at all. I just say that I've used it so that you understand.
Nikki Kinzer:
So you mentioned taking emotion out of motivation. Let's start [inaudible 00:16:43] What is that?
Pete Wright:
Yeah, I was just going to say, that seems like the hardest thing in the world.
Dr. Tamara Rosier:
We can't. So we have to just name it. So the first step is we're just going to name it. "I don't feel like unloading the dishwasher right now. I don't feel like it. And it seems like it's going to take forever." And you just kind of name it.
Or, "I don't want to open this email because I'm pretty sure I'm going to get yelled at in this email." And that's not naming the emotion, but it's naming how you're feeling about this.
Nikki Kinzer:
I'm saying it out loud.
Pete Wright:
I think that gets to the misnomer of removing emotion from the conversation that really that's not the objective. The objective is to be able to talk about the experience and the emotion of the experience as two separate conversations, or at least recognizing that there are two bits in the same conversation, not ignoring one and just swallowing it for the sake of the other.
Dr. Tamara Rosier:
Yeah, that's exactly it. Thank you. That's exactly what I was trying to say. So thank you. I appreciate that.
Pete Wright:
I'm just a mirror for your greatness Tamara.
Dr. Tamara Rosier:
So what we want to do is, this is harder to motivate yourself this way. Oh, by the way, in a previous life, because you read my bio and I'm like, yeah, I have an ADHD bio, don't I? In a previous life, I was professor and I taught a whole grad course on motivation.
Nikki Kinzer:
Oh wow.
Dr. Tamara Rosier:
So I'm not going to go into that whole grad course, don't worry. But I'm going to tell you the punchline. And the punchline is, humans motivate themselves best when they can think in a self-actualized way. This means you're not hungry, you're not feeling a strong emotion, you're not too tired. So don't try to motivate yourself if you're hungry, angry, or tired, just don't.
Feed yourself. Go to sleep and just understand, I'm lacking motivation because I don't have anything to muster from. Motivation takes energy, and we have to respect it takes energy. It takes energy for all humans. And remember, we're different from dogs, and dogs are motivated.
Nikki Kinzer:
Are we though?
Dr. Tamara Rosier:
Children aren't. But an adult, when we can get to the point where we can label it, that's still different.
Nikki Kinzer:
It makes a difference.
Dr. Tamara Rosier:
I have some Pavlovian tendencies. I understand that. But if we honor that in ourselves, like, okay, this is hard. So the next step is I'm accepting the dissonance I feel. And what that means is" "I don't want to do this. I accept it." The other part of it is, I'm willing to do hard things.
Pete Wright:
I've got to talk about my buddy Abe Maslow, because you talk about an actualized way, you've got to bring up Maslow, because this is where I often run into the friction that exists between ADHD and the hierarchy of needs. Hierarchy of needs, the pyramid is like the food pyramid for our emotional wellbeing, psychological needs at the bottom, safety and security, love and belonging, self-esteem, self actualization.
And then there's another one that he added later that's about transcendence, and that's all fine. But the thing about Maslow and the ADHD brain is that I think it breaks down all kinds of different ways. Because ADHD allows us to forget the important things at the bottom, the most critical areas of the hierarchy.
We forget sometimes to eat and pay the rent and drink enough water to stay hydrated. We forget to take our meds and keep our bills paid that keep the lights on and the doors locked. We forget the things that allow us to reach self-actualization.
And as I'm listening to you talk, the only thing I can think about is no wonder there's no data to actually support why an ADHD brain should be successful. Because all of the data that has been assessing neurologically standardized brains doesn't even account for what the neurodiverse brain can even accomplish because of all the limitations accordingly.
Dr. Tamara Rosier:
When I was writing Your Brain's Not Broken, I got deep into the research. ADHD brains don't predict the future well, outside of the pyramid. We literally don't do that. And that is so disabling in the modern world because the modern world's set up on patterns, "See this pattern, behave, see this pattern, behave." And each time we're like, "Oh, that happened? Okay."
And I've watched neurotypicals pick up on patterns, dumb patterns easier. And so it's fascinating that... And I know I'm hitting that, hey, we're at a great deficiency here. And I'm not trying to depress people. I just want people to know this is hard guys, and let's not joke around that you're going to make it easy all of a sudden. So stop being mean to yourself about this. This is hard.
Nikki Kinzer:
Well, and I think when you're talking about identifying what's going on, I relate to that, especially with anxiety. Even this morning I was feeling anxious and I had to identify, "Why am I feeling anxious? What is it? Why am I getting this feeling in my stomach?" And had to talk it through a little bit, did a little meditation to help me release whatever that anxiety was.
And I think there is a lot of power in identifying how you feel and saying it out loud, and sometimes just being okay with, you know what, not doing the dishes tonight.
Dr. Tamara Rosier:
Back to Pete's point though, is kind of checking in with yourself going, and you know how you guys have going to Italy as your joke?
Pete Wright:
Yes.
Dr. Tamara Rosier:
We have Maslow's hierarchy as a joke. My husband will start talking to me. I'm like, "I'm too low on the Maslow's hierarchy."
Pete Wright:
I'm very level oneing right now.
Dr. Tamara Rosier:
I'm just working through water, sleep, eating, and I don't know which one to do because I'm so thirsty, so tired and so hungry. And so you don't want to talk to me right now about this. And it's not even a bad thing, it's just, I can't even think straight. But if we're understanding this is real for our emotions, this is real.
And you guys have family members, you know what happens when they get hangry? Well, the ADHD brain, when they get hangry, they just shut down. So Pete, to your point, I think that's a great point you made. We've got to keep looking at Abe's little triangle.
Pete Wright:
But well, partially because I feel like we've talked about the HALT, the hungry, angry. You're talking about lonely and tired. And I love it because it works so well to describe a sense of immediacy to how we're feeling right now, a checklist to just solve this problem. But the thing that I struggle with is when you simplify our neurological experience to HALT, you're missing a lot of the things that allow us to move forward in life. If all you're focusing on is the immediate somatic experience, we're missing the love and belonging self-esteem self actualization.
And I think that's why HALT addresses the first two levels of Maslow. But what actually is the lingering gift of Maslow, as controversial as you might find it, is that Maslow describes what it means to move your life forward to the degree that you want to do that. And to the degree that you feel whole. And I think as ADHD, we don't spend a lot of time because we're so used to living in right now, what am I feeling? What am I doing right now? And I think that's a challenge, especially when we talk about motivation.
Dr. Tamara Rosier:
I love that you bring this up because you're making me feel really good about my book and the next book. Because I just turned in the manuscript for the next book. So the first book addresses like, hey, name the lower level, but it does have the emotional health ladder in it. And it says, "Where are you on this ladder?" And it's trying to get people out of Maslow's hierarchy, not out of the lower levels out of it.
Pete Wright:
The lower level. Sure.
Dr. Tamara Rosier:
Yeah. And so then in this new book, what I'm trying to do is go, "Hey, let's really do some ego development here." And let's take that ego development and now look at it in our family relationships. So how do we grow as humans and then affect our family as we're becoming better humans? Actually, you just made me feel really darn good. So thank you. I appreciate that.
Pete Wright:
Once again, president of the fan club. You drop ego, and we've got to sort of trigger on that because I feel like so much of our inability to motivate and move forward is because at some level we are egoically deficient. Talk about that a little bit?
Dr. Tamara Rosier:
Well, you said that out loud. I don't usually say that out loud. The truth is, those of us with ADHD, we look very egocentric. It's because we're just trying to survive. And we're at the lower level of Maslow's hierarchy, and we're just trying to survive. If someone comes in, we're like, "What? What do you want?" They're like, "Wow, gosh, you're rude." We're like, "No, I'm not rude. I'm just trying to do this right." Short-
Pete Wright:
I live in a sphere of rejection and doubt and fear. This is all I've got.
Dr. Tamara Rosier:
Yes. And we're trying to hold this thought because we know if we don't grip this thing, it's going to float away and we'll never see it again. And so we look like we're very egocentric, and actually we are. I work with a lot of clients, and I'm sure you guys do too, who all they're thinking about is their experience. And when I say, "Well, how do you think your wife experiences that?" And they kind of look at me like, "Well, she should feel sorry for me." "Yes, but what else? How do you think she's feeling?"
And that's actually very difficult. And so ADHD folks, if they're not working on their ego development, they're going to keep trying to shame themselves and do the lower level ways of motivating themselves.
Pete Wright:
And getting stuck.
Dr. Tamara Rosier:
Yeah, getting stuck.
Pete Wright:
But then it interesting you put it that way because I'll just reflect on what I heard. What I heard was an experience of people with ADHD who are veering toward aggressive narcissist, just blind to other people. And that's just not been my experience. I can totally see how the appearance of egocentrism around getting my needs met because I live in this bubble are important. But I just feel like I've seen more ADHD people who are heart forward and motivationally deficient.
Dr. Tamara Rosier:
Yes, we look egocentric though when we're thinking about how hard we have to work. We're not narcissistic. We're not trying to use others to feed our ego. That's narcissism. We're encompassed in our own experience.
And the irony is most of us are incredibly sensitive. We go heart forward and we think we're bearing our soul. In reality, people are like, "That came off a little egocentric." Do you get how we're misconstrued by the world?
Pete Wright:
I do. It was the line that provoked me was, "She should feel sorry for me." And that's the piece I feel like I haven't experienced so much.
Dr. Tamara Rosier:
I do frequently as a coach, but my clients aren't narcissists. I don't work with narcissism. These are good people showing up and they're like, "If she just understood how hard I work just to get through the day."
By the way Pete, those of how you talk to the writers who are working through writing, writing makes you face your ego.
Pete Wright:
Oh, God does it ever.
Dr. Tamara Rosier:
The people who are truly digging in and writing and doing the hard work, and their sweat drops on their paper, they're facing themselves. And now I'm kind of going Carl Jung in my theory, but still, you get the idea. It's humbling to write and it's scary to write. And you have to look in the mirror and go, "Oh, gulp. I don't know." And that's actually a great exercise. So writing is a great thing when you have ADHD and horrendous at the same time. It's a curse and a blessing.
So what we've done just for your audience is we've named it. We named the, I'm at a lowest level of Maslow's hierarchy. I'm hungry and angry. I don't put lonely in there for a different reason, because I'm just talking about the lowest level, the physiological level, I won't go into all the reasons why I don't put lonely in here. Lonely shows up someplace else, but then we have to kind of acknowledge the dissonance. "I don't want to do this." And then step into, "But I'm willing to do hard things." And you're changing, Nikki, you said your mindset.
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah, it's the growth mindset, right?
Dr. Tamara Rosier:
It's Carol Dweck stuff. Yeah. And so you're like, "But I'm willing to do it." And that right there is a key. And so then all of a sudden our brains become method actors going, "But why? What's my motivation for doing it?"
And this is where I'm going to tell you two tricks I have, and they're not going to work for everyone. The first one is tying it to a value. "I don't want to do this, but I want to be the kind of person who would do this."
I was working with someone who constantly, Nikki brought up the kitchen area. Her house was a mess. I'm like, "Why is this bugging you so much? A lot of people have messy houses." She's like, "I want to be a person who's cleanly and has cleanliness." She valued cleanliness. I'm like, "Then how do we match up your actions with your value?" Because that's really what motivation is, is when our actions and values don't match.
By the way, I have no motivation to return an email fast. Because like yesterday, and I apologize to you guys. You asked me, "Hey, please confirm." And I missed it because I was with clients all day and I just was scanning and I missed the scan.
So whereas my husband, he meticulously goes through, he has a high conscientiousness, that's a value around email. It's not my value. And I'm not saying that's the right thing. It's just not a high value thing.
Pete Wright:
It's just a thing.
Dr. Tamara Rosier:
Yeah, right.
Pete Wright:
Right. It's a judgment free thing.
Dr. Tamara Rosier:
Yeah. I mean, well, except for you guys, you're like, "Well, it'd be just really nice if you had responded." But that aside, I get it. Connecting with, why is this bothering me? What is the true value here? And when people say, "Well, I should." It's like, "But why? What's the value that you're trying to live up to? And is it a value you can live up to?"
Nikki Kinzer:
That's so interesting to me because I was thinking when you were talking about that, I've always said, "I wish I liked to cook." Because if I liked to cook, it wouldn't feel like such a burden at the end of the day. But there is something there that is of a value. I really do think it would be great if I liked to cook, for a lot of different reasons.
So it's just what resonates is there is something in there. There's something there for me to investigate of where do I go from, I would like to, to maybe actually getting closer to liking?
Pete Wright:
Actually liking it.
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah. Yeah.
Dr. Tamara Rosier:
Well, okay, so as a coach, I would want to be curious about this, and I would go, it sounds like there's a belief hidden in there, "I should like to cook."
Nikki Kinzer:
Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Oh gosh. You're good.
Dr. Tamara Rosier:
You're both, okay. All right.
Pete Wright:
I'm so relieved that happened to you and not me. I was just thinking, how can I hide from Tamara? How can I hide from Tamara?
Nikki Kinzer:
I know I didn't hide, I didn't hide, and now I'm way out in the open.
Pete Wright:
Chin forward.
Nikki Kinzer:
I know exactly what the belief is now that you brought it up, is I believe that I should be able to love doing this for my family. I want my kids to think that I cooked for them. And instead they're going to remember that we had a lot of takeout and a lot of DoorDash. But yeah, you hit that one right on the head.
Dr. Tamara Rosier:
But then you tied that belief to a value and judged it.
Nikki Kinzer:
Bingo.
Dr. Tamara Rosier:
Sorry Nikki. But you get what's happening. So that's why we can't go: "Here's five easy tips to motivate yourself," because you guys are highly intelligent people and your minds are complicated, and we make up stuff and we just have to explore it.
The first one is, understand your value. And then the second one, Nikki, thanks to you, we know that we have to ask, "Is there a belief in here that somehow that I should be this kind of person?"
Nikki Kinzer:
Yes. And most likely there is.
Pete Wright:
But in that case, to what detriment, say your kids think you have memories of your family growing up eating a lot of DoorDash, like, okay, you know what? You do a lot of awesome stuff with your kids. Your family is highs and lows an enormously sort of emotionally warm place to be, DoorDash or not.
Dr. Tamara Rosier:
Okay, but what did Nikki do? She dismissed that knowledge. In exchange for-
Pete Wright:
Effortlessly.
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah, for sure.
Dr. Tamara Rosier:
I know this isn't a Nikki coaching session, we're not analyzing Nikki, but I appreciate your vulnerability because this is exactly what people do. And so something I help clients with is, "Is this even who you want to be?" Do you want to be that person? And so convince me, why is this a good thing?
Nikki Kinzer:
Are you really asking me that question? Because you're looking at me like okay, answer.
Dr. Tamara Rosier:
That's a coaching leftover. That's why I jumped in like, "No, no, you don't have to answer." But what happens is we start to really examine, well, I just made cooking a character trait rather than a hobby.
Nikki Kinzer:
Gosh, I sure did.
Pete Wright:
Wow, that turned fast.
Nikki Kinzer:
That did, yeah.
Pete Wright:
Oh, snap.
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah, because you know what happens next is you think, "Oh, they're going to think this. I must be a terrible mom. I'm a bad mom."
Pete Wright:
This is all about Nikki the bad mom. Oh my God, that was so fast.
Nikki Kinzer:
Wow, you're good. You're really good.
Dr. Tamara Rosier:
But do you guys hear how this is related to motivation?
Nikki Kinzer:
Oh, of course. Because if I keep feeling that way, I'm going to keep avoiding cooking. I'm going to keep avoiding it because it makes me feel bad.
Pete Wright:
Because every time you do it, all you're thinking about is the judgment because you don't do it enough or because you don't love it?
Nikki Kinzer:
Probably both. I think because there's a piece to wanting to do it for my family, but there's also this value piece of I see myself, like when you talk about yourself, who do you want to be? And I think, oh, wouldn't it be lovely to turn on some music and have, I do not drink wine, but a cocktail.
Pete Wright:
Yeah, you drink, you go straight to the hard stuff. We get it.
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah. And cutting up those carrots like a chef and just having it be this beautiful experience of some kind of meditation. So there's this part of me that just thinks this would be a really just nice thing to do that isn't involving social media.
Pete Wright:
Social media.
Nikki Kinzer:
Work, TV, all of those things that I feel like suck my energy, not work. Work doesn't suck my energy, but social media and games and TV, I'm talking about when I leave work, what do I do during that time before I go to bed? And I think that it feels like that cooking experience would be just a really lovely thing to do after work.
Dr. Tamara Rosier:
You made up a whole story.
Nikki Kinzer:
I did.
Dr. Tamara Rosier:
Out of some Eat, Pray, Love kind of movie.
Pete Wright:
That's true. There were villagers and subplots.
Dr. Tamara Rosier:
Right. You were not even your playing yourself.
Nikki Kinzer:
I don't drink wine and I still see the wine glass.
Dr. Tamara Rosier:
Exactly. And you're wondering why we can't motivate you to cook. Do you see, we're not even talking about you. We're talking about-
Nikki Kinzer:
We're really not.
Dr. Tamara Rosier:
... a fantasy Nikki.
Nikki Kinzer:
It's so true. Right. Yeah.
Dr. Tamara Rosier:
So at this point, I would ask my client, "What do we want to do with cooking? Is it worth it for you? Is it worth all the energy it's going to take for cooking?" I don't know the answer. And you don't have to answer because again, this is not coaching, and I'm sorry.
Nikki Kinzer:
Well, I'll tell you what I'm doing right now. Where this is all at right now is my husband's doing all the cooking because I have other things I'm working on that are taking some time. And so by the end of the day, I really honestly don't have the energy to do much. And so I've delegated it off to him.
Dr. Tamara Rosier:
Okay, so Nikki, I'm sorry, you volunteered this. So now I can't help this.
Nikki Kinzer:
I know. I know.
Dr. Tamara Rosier:
This train's out of control now.
Nikki Kinzer:
It is.
Dr. Tamara Rosier:
I'm just going to say this. What you telling yourself about him cooking? Because I heard, "Yeah. So I'm not really doing a great job because I delegated it to another adult who is fully capable, but somehow I'm still failing." Sorry. Is that too much?
Nikki Kinzer:
No, it's so true.
Dr. Tamara Rosier:
You never want me back? Okay.
Nikki Kinzer:
No, this is great. Yeah. No, but it is so true. You're right. I don't look at it as being this positive thing that I did. I look at it as this desperate thing that I did, because otherwise, I know what would happen. Yeah. I have to flip the script.
Dr. Tamara Rosier:
Nikki, I'll get off your case. One last little comment. She missed the fact, she wanted so badly to be motivated in this area, she missed the fact she has this incredible partner who's willing to do these things, who I'm assuming is not throwing spaghetti across, yelling about it, but is acting like an adult partner. She missed the blessing in this, and so she's trying to motivate herself in the wrong way.
And Okay, Nikki, we can stop talking about you. And I'm so sorry.
Nikki Kinzer:
No, no, no, no. Don't be sorry. This was great. It's very insightful. It makes me think because you're right, I totally dismissed that part of it.
Pete Wright:
You have the image in your head is your husband is a gorilla, and I love that low-key, but that's absolutely not true.
Nikki Kinzer:
No, no, it is. Yeah. Yeah. No, this is good. Wow. Well, I hope that this helps people look at their own thing too, this was not expected. This was not planned.
Dr. Tamara Rosier:
Here's the thing. I'm afraid your listeners are still going, Cool story about Nikki. How do I motivate to do the thing I actually have to do?"
Nikki Kinzer:
Have to do. Yeah, yeah, that's true.
Dr. Tamara Rosier:
Right. And so I don't want to leave your listeners frustrated, so at least I want to try to express this.
Pete Wright:
Let's pivot it back there because really what I just got out of that experience with Nikki is that she'll be better off just freeing herself from the judgment part, understanding where cooking fits in her life, and then move on to other things that really do fit who she is.
I'll just pivot. So one of the old favorites in my life with therapy is just my relationship with health and fitness. And that I have a duty to this machine that is my body to be a healthy and fit person. And I damage that all the time.
Again, what I'm hearing is the holy cow, the character trait judgment is alive and well inside of me. But I feel like that's an example of needing the rewiring part to motivate to do this thing that I am constantly consistently judging myself against.
Dr. Tamara Rosier:
Okay. So now, Pete, we're going to work with you if you're open. So first we're going to name the emotion around it. What's the emotion?
Pete Wright:
Do I have to pick one?
Dr. Tamara Rosier:
No, it's a lot. It's like a goat rodeo of emotions. Yeah.
Pete Wright:
It's complicated. Yeah, it's just complicated and fear and anxiety and depression, laziness, shame. Yeah. I live with somebody who's very fit. My kids are both very fit and active, and I'm the one who, yeah, I know. Come on. I watch the Olympics. I don't need to run in them.
Dr. Tamara Rosier:
I don't even watch them. The whole... Too much. Yeah. I have a sportsy kid too, who does everything sports. Very fit.
Pete Wright:
Yeah. Disgusting.
Dr. Tamara Rosier:
And I'm like, "Whoa, who gave birth to that?" So if I asked you, are you okay, there's some dissonance, are you willing to cross that threshold to go, "This is going to be uncomfortable, but I'm willing to think about it?"
Pete Wright:
Totally. It's always uncomfortable, but I'm always thinking about it.
Dr. Tamara Rosier:
So why would you exercise? I know that sounds very basic, but for real.
Pete Wright:
No, no, no. I think it's really important because I do have the ideal in my mind that I live a long and healthy life and I have health stuff in my family. So there is a looming shadow of the stuff that I think a long and healthy life can fix.
Dr. Tamara Rosier:
Okay. I've had the same kind of thing happen to me. It's like, "Oh, this health is not given to me. I have to earn it." And I'm at the age where it's almost like a part-time job for me. It takes a lot to manage all of this. Right? I'll be 56 in January. And dang, it takes a lot.
Pete Wright:
Once you hit 5-0, that curve goes straight up.
Nikki Kinzer:
For sure.
Dr. Tamara Rosier:
So I'm going to tell everyone why I brush my teeth every day.
Pete Wright:
Oh, good. Yes.
Dr. Tamara Rosier:
I don't want dentures. Not because it's good hygiene. And you could go, well, this is fear. No, I am avoiding pain though. I know it will be uncomfortable, and I have a very nice toothbrush. It's a sonic toothbrush. I had to get used to the vibration, didn't like it, but it leaves my teeth very, very clean. And I can rest knowing I've done everything to avoid getting teeth pulled. Because you hear people in their 50s still getting their teeth pulled in this day and age, and I'm like, "I don't want that. I don't want periodontal disease."
And so because of that, I do these things. In this way, you're trying to avoid the pain and go to something. So the value is: I want a long life. For me, brushing the teeth the value is: I want to keep my teeth.
Pete Wright:
Yeah. I want long, healthy teeth.
Dr. Tamara Rosier:
I'm very selfish like that, I want my teeth. I used to be very sloppy about brushing until I realized these could fall out on you. So now with exercise it's very tricky because there's a lot of negative messages. Plus exercise for some people is actually unpleasant. I'm one of those people. What's the unpleasantness that you feel?
Pete Wright:
I don't love the time that it takes. I always feel like there's something better I should be doing or that I'm missing, or what will I miss while I'm doing it?
To your earlier point, you said something that really resonated. We were talking about writing, and it was that the old saw, I don't love the act of doing it, but I love having done it. There is a good feeling at the end of it, but I'm not one of those people who is able to motivate using that. It's not enough. On a day-to-day, it's way too easy to make those other choices because it's unpleasant.
Dr. Tamara Rosier:
So I heard time, and sometimes we have to solve a motivational issue by solving what the trouble is. And this time it's not really belief. You're like, "No, literally it takes time." So there's such a thing called high intensity training.
Pete Wright:
Yes. Yep.
Dr. Tamara Rosier:
Yeah?
Pete Wright:
For sure.
Dr. Tamara Rosier:
I thought you would know about that.
Nikki Kinzer:
HIT right?
Dr. Tamara Rosier:
Yeah, HIT. So in HIT, you can exercise 10 minutes and the research on this, I follow this research because I hate exercise. The research on that is so incredible. And so now we can go, okay, am I willing to do this for 10 minutes? Is that a different conversation in your head?
Pete Wright:
It might be. So far it hasn't been. Let's say that. It's that challenge of consistency. I can feel really good about it myself for a week, and then something will hijack it.
Dr. Tamara Rosier:
Yep. Which we're consistently inconsistent.
Pete Wright:
Yes, for sure.
Dr. Tamara Rosier:
So in that, I hear the fear of what if I do ramp myself up motivationally to finally do this, and I fail?
Pete Wright:
Yes. And I have failed so many times. It hits right here. Because the other piece is I walk my dog every morning at 6:15 in the dark, we're out doing our walk. And that's something that I do every day. And by the time I get back home, I don't want to do anymore. I feel like I've checked that off my list. I don't want to do a high intensity anything. The walk is fine, but I don't feel like I'm getting any healthier. I'm not walking that hard.
Dr. Tamara Rosier:
But you know walking is really good for us.
Pete Wright:
Yeah. Yes, yes. I've heard. Yeah.
Dr. Tamara Rosier:
Yeah. I mean, so you're kind of doing, "Well, I can't count that as exercise."
Pete Wright:
That's what I do. Yeah. That's my brand.
Dr. Tamara Rosier:
Yeah. Jokes on you. It is.
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah. You're moving.
Pete Wright:
Jokes on me. Oh God, I'm putting that on a shirt. Just an arrow pointing up at this guy.
Dr. Tamara Rosier:
But you get what I'm saying. Yes. So when we start to deconstruct this motivational pattern, there's a fear of failure there. And well, and by the way, I have this too. I'm sure I could be doing something better. My healthiest times are in the summer when I'm working in the yard, I'm building things, I'm swimming, I'm doing all these active things where I don't know that I'm exercising.
Pete Wright:
Yes. And then it's time to hibernate. And then you have to think about, "Oh, I don't want to do that inside."
Dr. Tamara Rosier:
Right. And so it's funny, I do isometric things because again, isometric, old exercise, research is solid with it. And guess what? I can do isometric holds while watching TV.
Pete Wright:
True.
Dr. Tamara Rosier:
And that's what I do.
Pete Wright:
Distraction.
Dr. Tamara Rosier:
And it's funny because I don't want to do it, but my brain's like, well, come on, you can rewatch this.
Nikki Kinzer:
I don't know what that means. What does that mean?
Dr. Tamara Rosier:
Isometric is when you hold your muscles in a constricted way. So like a plank. I think that's isometric. Sitting against the wall holding, if you kind of hold a weight, it's anytime your muscles are strained and you're holding it, that's isometric.
Nikki Kinzer:
So a lot of yoga, is that, kind of?
Dr. Tamara Rosier:
Not exactly. No, because it's usually something with weight. Yoga is about stretching. Now, if there's an exercise science major out there, they may go, "Tamara is completely wrong." I'm not an exercise major.
Nikki Kinzer:
That's not one of the things that you did in your past life.
Dr. Tamara Rosier:
That's not one of the things. No, but what I'm saying is, I shouldn't say this, but I'm going to say it anyway. It's a lazy form of exercise for me.
Nikki Kinzer:
Right. Yeah. But it's still movement. It's still like...
Dr. Tamara Rosier:
When you reach a certain age, you have to keep muscle. And how do you build muscle? Isometric is a way to build muscle, lifting weights is a way to build muscle. And so the isometric holds it's a workaround for me.
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah. I see.
Dr. Tamara Rosier:
Now, Pete, I'm not trying to tell you you have to do my workarounds.
Pete Wright:
No, I like your workarounds. They're great. I'm more TV plus a little exercise. I'll try that.
Dr. Tamara Rosier:
Well, here's the thing, and plus why don't we set it up as not a pass fail for you. A lot of motivational issues come because Pete and Nikki both did this. They set up a pass fail for themselves. Instead of having a growth mindset going, "You know what? I showed up today and I think that's good enough for today." Pete's already going, "Yeah, but I failed tomorrow."
Nikki Kinzer:
And I'm a terrible mom.
Pete Wright:
The real lesson to me is the character-
Dr. Tamara Rosier:
You win big.
Nikki Kinzer:
I win big.
Pete Wright:
The character in my head is a super fit Pete, who is constantly out hiking and jumping out of airplanes or something with his wife who is very fit. And I have that image, what you described of Nikki, that rug pull works on me too. That is exactly, I have that guy in my head and I need to let go of that guy because that guy's not who I am.
The guy that I am is somebody who does need to keep fitness up toward in the back half of my life and doesn't have to be all that showy and jump out of any airplanes to get it done.
Dr. Tamara Rosier:
Right. Because what's the value? You want to spend more time with your family, you love them, and you want to be present for their lives. That's the big picture, right? By the way, you get your behind out of bed every morning at 6:15 and walk, and you're trying to tell me you're inconsistent?
Pete Wright:
I do. I do that every day.
Dr. Tamara Rosier:
What kind of BF is that?
Pete Wright:
Because people kick me out of bed. The house gets me up, I'm definitely triggered to get out of bed. It's like the Jetsons. It's practically the bed slides up and I slide out of bed.
Nikki Kinzer:
But what a great point that you just pointed out, Tamara.
Pete Wright:
I didn't even know I did it. Look at that.
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah, because the story starts with, it's not good enough. It's not enough. But you brought it back to, but look at you. You are being so consistent, getting up at 6:15 and walking the dog every morning.
Dr. Tamara Rosier:
And he dismissed it.
Nikki Kinzer:
That's a huge success. Yeah.
Pete Wright:
It doesn't take long.
Dr. Tamara Rosier:
Wow. And here's the thing. You guys are modeling what happens and what screws up our motivation. Because I'm like, "Pete, that's very consistent." He's like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah I can't credit for that."
Pete Wright:
I dismiss it.
Nikki Kinzer:
You did.
Pete Wright:
Curses.
Dr. Tamara Rosier:
You're quite the dismiss there. But that's why this motivation stuff's so tough, guys, we can't do five easy steps to motivate yourself and anyone who does that, we need to call BS on this because this is hard work. And I'm hoping your listeners got something from how hard it is to motivate ourselves. But we can do it.
Just the last little trick, and this is just a little trick, I imagine future Tamara, and I think what would future Tamara want me to be? And by the way, it's because present Tamara is constantly ticked at past Tamara. She's like, "You know what? Dang it, if past Tamara would've done this, I wouldn't have to mess with this." And so I think of future Tamara. How am I going to make her happy?
Well, you know what? If she has her clothes laid out tomorrow when she's the dumbest at 6:15 AM she's not going to have to think what to put on her body. So I'm going to help that chick out. I'm going to lay out the clothes. And it motivates me.
And by the way, I wrote this in my book too. I will high five my past self and I've done this.
Nikki Kinzer:
I love that.
Dr. Tamara Rosier:
I'll turn around and high five the air and go, "Good job, girl, you did it." I'll also curse out my past self too, but that's less positive. I got tired of doing that. So now I look for, "What do I want? Do I want the book done? Yeah. So I'm going to show up and write today, even though I feel really crappy."
Pete Wright:
Tamara, this is great.
Nikki Kinzer:
Thank you for coaching us.
Pete Wright:
A nice therapy session you just gave us. Thank you so much. We've already been talking a bunch about the book, Your Brain's Not Broken, which people should go and pick up at your favorite local bookseller. And where should people go to learn more about you? What's your website? Where do you want to send people?
Dr. Tamara Rosier:
Author website is tamararosier.com.
Pete Wright:
Perfect.
Dr. Tamara Rosier:
T-A-M-A-R-A.
Pete Wright:
And we'll put all of the links in the show notes. So mostly just swipe up in the notes and tap, and that will take you right to where you will find Tamara. Thank you so much for hanging out with us.
Dr. Tamara Rosier:
Thanks guys.
Pete Wright:
... and calling us out.
Dr. Tamara Rosier:
You guys are awesome. Thank you so much.
Nikki Kinzer:
Thank you.
Pete Wright:
Well, thank you. Well, this has been fantastic and thank you everybody for downloading and listening to this show. Thanks for your time and your attention.
Don't forget if you have something to contribute to the conversation, we're heading over to the Show Talk channel in the Discord server, and you can join us right there by becoming a supporting member at the deluxe level, or better. On behalf of Dr. Tamara Rosier and Nikki Kinzer, I'm Pete Wright, and you'll see us right back here next week on Taking Control: The ADHD podcast.
