Balancing the ADHD Underwhelm-Overwhelm Scales with Brooke Schnittman

Aug 15

This week on the show, Nikki and Pete dive into the unique challenges of navigating the emotional rollercoaster of ADHD with guest Brooke Schnittman. Brooke, an ADHD coach with a background in education, is expert in the concepts of overwhelm and underwhelm, two extremes that often go hand-in-hand for those with ADHD. She explains that underwhelm, or boredom, can result from burnout after periods of overwhelm or a lack of interest and connection to a task. She emphasizes the importance of understanding the "why" behind tasks and breaking them down into small, manageable steps to build momentum and motivation.

Pete and Brooke also discuss the role of executive function deficits in preventing individuals with ADHD from recognizing and addressing their basic needs, such as hydration, sleep, and self-care. Brooke highlights Dr. Thomas Brown's six executive function clusters and how deficits in these areas can contribute to both overwhelm and underwhelm.

Throughout the episode, Brooke offers insights and strategies for managing these emotional extremes, such as preparing for potential setbacks, attaching oneself to small actions to regain momentum, and practicing self-compassion. The hosts and guest explore the overlapping triggers for both overwhelm and underwhelm, emphasizing the importance of self-awareness and developing coping mechanisms to navigate the challenges of ADHD.

Links & Notes

Pete Wright:
Hello everybody, and welcome to Taking Control: The ADHD Podcast on TruStory FM. I'm Pete Wright, and I'm here with Nikki Kinzer.
Nikki Kinzer:
Hello everyone. Hello, Pete Wright.
Pete Wright:
Nikki, what do you make of this today?
Nikki Kinzer:
So exciting.
Pete Wright:
I'm very excited about this conversation today, because I don't know if you know this, but I live in a constant state of the emotional roller coaster of overwhelm and underwhelm, like constantly. It's the spiritual twin of my anxiety and OCD. So, this is going to be awesome.
Nikki Kinzer:
Yes.
Pete Wright:
And we have a great, great, great guest to talk to us about that. Very excited about that. But hold on, before I talk to you all about her, let me tell you about us. If you want to learn a little bit more about the show, head over to takecontroladhd.com, get to know us a little bit better. You know the drill, it's @takecontroladhd like everywhere, Facebook, Instagram, Pinterest. We all love Pinterest. Take Control ADHD, if you really want to connect with us, head over to our ADHD Discord community. It's super easy. It's free. It's open to the public. Just visit takecontroladhd.com/discord and you'll be whisked over to the invitation page, where you can log in, or create your own new account. It's really, really great. If you really want to support the show though, which we would love it if you would consider, particularly if you're a longtime listener, head over to patreon.com/theadhdpodcast.
Patreon is listener-supported podcasting. It is a way for your few bucks a month to add up to supporting bucks a month for us. It supports me and Nikki. It supports the whole team that works to put these shows together on the back end, and we are real human people, and we're working really hard to keep this podcast going, and it's season 29, y'all. So help us help you. That's the deal. It's a real Jerry McGuire, help us help you. So, we love doing this show. We want to keep doing it. Patreon.com/theadhdpodcast to learn more. So, are you feeling overwhelmed, or I don't know, underwhelmed? For those with ADHD, these two extremes feel like a constant companion. And today, coach Brooke Schnittman joins us to dive into the unique challenges of navigating the emotional roller coaster of ADHD. Brooke, welcome to the podcast at long last.
Brooke Schnittman:
Thank you Pete, and thank you, Nikki. Wow, that's a really hard intro to follow. So, I'm going to just get the underwhelm to kick in, because I'm a little overwhelmed.
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Nikki Kinzer:
That's right.
Pete Wright:
You've got such an interesting background, and let's start. For those who don't know you, don't know how that happened, but for those who don't know you, tell us a little bit about how you got started as an ADHD coach, because you come from such a fantastic background in education, I want to hear about that. What happened?
Brooke Schnittman:
Thank you. Like most people with ADHD, I kind of gravitated to people with ADHD. I dated lots of men with ADHD, and my dad used to make fun of me. It's like, "Why is every single man that you're dating having ADHD?" But what I didn't know at the time is I had it. And ironically, I went to undergrad in education and then I was like, "This is not exciting enough for me. Let's make it spicy." So, then I immediately went into my master's in special education, and then immediately became a special education teacher, then administrator, and did that for 15 years.
And once there was too much red tape in the school system, and too much pushing paper as an administrator, and not getting to the core of helping kids, and seeing that in front of me, then I shifted, and then I got coached, and in the process of getting coached, I realized I want to be an ADHD coach because there was someone in the field who recommended it to me. I was like, "Okay, great. Let's do this." And this was in 2018. So, six months into my coaching journey as an ADHD coach, I realized I had ADHD, and then I met my non-diagnosed husband six months later, and his two non-diagnosed kids, and now we are one big ADHD family.
Pete Wright:
Oh my God, that's outstanding.
Nikki Kinzer:
That is so interesting, because that is not something-
Pete Wright:
You discovered you had ADHD by becoming an ADHD coach.
Nikki Kinzer:
I've never heard that before. That is so interesting. Wow.
Pete Wright:
Oh my God. It's wonderful.
Brooke Schnittman:
Yep.
Pete Wright:
It's wonderful. We're talking about other stuff today, but what's that like? What is that aha moment like, when you realized that, "Oh my God, the call is coming from inside the house?"
Brooke Schnittman:
It made a lot of sense, and at the same time I was like, "Okay, well, I'm kind of already doing this," so my ADHD brain is continuing to keep doing the thing. But it happened to be that once I became a mom, and once we got married, life changed, and my structure changed, and then I was like, "Oh, this ADHD thing is creating havoc. I need to restructure my life."
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah. Yeah.
Pete Wright:
Yeah, totally.
Nikki Kinzer:
Which goes into what we're talking about today. So, we're talking about underwhelm and overwhelm, and we're going to talk about both, but I'm really interested in starting with underwhelm, because I think we talk a lot about overwhelm, and people immediately know what we're talking about, but with underwhelm, it's not always as clear cut. So, can you describe a little bit about what underwhelm is for someone with ADHD?
Brooke Schnittman:
Yeah. Underwhelm is boredom, essentially. And it can happen when you have been overwhelmed, and then you burn out, and then you do nothing because you are way too overstimulated, right? So then you get to underwhelm, because of the under-stimulation for so long, or so you could be bored, there could be a lack of interest, due dates, connection to the thing. So, we get into this hypo-focus state, where you don't even want to touch the thing, because there's no dopamine kicking in that gets you interested to do the thing.
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah. Avoidance, a lot of avoiding is going on here.
Brooke Schnittman:
Avoidance. Thank you for putting this into English.
Nikki Kinzer:
I hear it all the time, and I'm sure listeners understand exactly what you're talking about.
Pete Wright:
Yeah, yeah. And I think this is really... It's triggering. It's triggering for me.
Brooke Schnittman:
I'm sorry, I didn't mean to activate you.
Pete Wright:
No, you're good. You're good.
Brooke Schnittman:
In the Control podcast.
Pete Wright:
Right. Because I feel like that boredom is so often mistaken for idleness, right? For, "Oh, he's just not motivated to get stuff done." That's a different thing.
Brooke Schnittman:
It is a different thing.
Pete Wright:
How do I teach people about that? How do I talk about it effectively?
Brooke Schnittman:
If the person has ADHD, and they're bored, it could be for many different reasons. Like I mentioned before, it could have been because they were totally used out all of their energy and dopamine, and they're depleted now, and now they're bored. Or, it could be because they're not interested, they don't know how to activate, to see the connection of why they need to do this. They might know the how, and the what, but not how it's connecting to them. It might not be simple enough. So, at the same time, they can be overwhelmed, and underwhelmed at the same time. So, they just don't understand the bigger picture, so they just push it off, and then become overwhelmed in the front end, and then underwhelmed interiorly, so essentially, to help with that. Is that part of the question?
Pete Wright:
Yes. Let's just pretend it is.
Nikki Kinzer:
We're just going to talk about it, but no help.
Pete Wright:
We're doing great.
Nikki Kinzer:
No help.
Brooke Schnittman:
Okay. I don't want to jump the gun.
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah, no, you're good.
Pete Wright:
You know what? Before you get started, this is why the metaphor works so well for me, spoon theory, right? Too many spoons, too few spoons, originally for chronic pain, but it works so well in describing sort of emotional resilience. And for my ADHD, it's great because it feels like what we're talking about is I know a lot about what it's like to have too few spoons, but sometimes too many spoons, I shut down too. I could be almost too ready for a thing, and I don't know what to do.
Brooke Schnittman:
Too many choices. Yeah, yeah.
Pete Wright:
Yeah. So, anyhow.
Brooke Schnittman:
Absolutely, absolutely too much spiraling, too many thoughts about where the decision should lie. But, I've talked a lot about this week specifically, I'm going to rein it into the underwhelmed piece of like, we can get overwhelmed because we are looking for that exciting thing that's different, that's complicated, that we haven't tackled yet, but we can be underwhelmed by the things that are quote unquote, and I'm saying this in quotes, for anyone who's not watching, "easy," like waking up, and thinking about what you want to accomplish for the day, 10 seconds, going and getting water for yourself. Literally scheduling in the exercise, or doing that small action that you have to do to take care of your hierarchy of needs, and also small action to build momentum, so then things get onto the path of motivation, and momentum, and persistence, and confidence. So, I know I'm kind of going in circles here, but I feel like we can be underwhelmed with the things that are "easy," but aren't really easy, because we're not doing them.
Pete Wright:
Oh my God, I can't... Were you in my house this morning? I got so... I was so bent out of shape at my son. My son's 18. Nick, if you're listening, you're awesome. Also, this morning, you were kind of a jerk. So, this is the thing. He has long days, and he gets up in the morning, and there are some basic needs, like eating, and showering, and taking care of yourself that need to happen.
Brooke Schnittman:
Yes.
Pete Wright:
But instead, he gets up at 8:30, doesn't get out of bed, and just lays there, does some things on his phone, but mostly just lays there until 9:30 when now he's late. He has to rush out the door, and doesn't take care of the basics. And I think there's something to this, that... He also has ADHD. Again, we're a proud ADHD family. And so, I think there's something to this, that those elements are not yet stimulating enough to have him engage in them, to be able to start the day, so he can't prove that he even knows how to do them.
Brooke Schnittman:
Correct.
Pete Wright:
So, it just creates strife because also with my ADHD, I'm projecting the hell out of it, because I know that I struggle with this too. Okay, well thanks for the therapy. This was great. I have some amends letters to write.
Brooke Schnittman:
No, but seriously, it's so funny. So, when I first started getting into personal development, let's say when I was teaching, so that's 20 years ago, but then when I really got into the adult personal development six years ago, I read all the books, as a typical non-diagnosed ADHD-er.
Pete Wright:
Right.
Brooke Schnittman:
And I learned concepts, and now I am being hit with those concepts again six years later, and I'm like, "Oh, these are so boring. I know these things. I could teach these things." But then, I'm not doing them. So then, when I'm like, "Oh, why am I so resistant to it? And why does it sound boring from this person? Let me try it." And I'm like, "Oh, they actually work."
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Brooke Schnittman:
It's simple.
Pete Wright:
Yeah. Sometimes the trigger, I feel like, where we are, the trigger has to come from some place that is more stimulating than the thing that you have to do, that you don't want to do, right?
Brooke Schnittman:
Yes.
Pete Wright:
My hypothesis is that hearing me say again, you got to get out of bed on time, take a shower, eat some protein, isn't going to work. It's really his boss that needs to tell him, "Dude, you stink. Do you shower?" That is a more stimulating signal than dad.
Brooke Schnittman:
Oh, totally.
Nikki Kinzer:
For sure.
Pete Wright:
And that I think will be more triggering, right?
Brooke Schnittman:
Yes.
Pete Wright:
Okay. So I also need to write his boss. We're doing great. No, we're hitting it out of the park, you guys.
Brooke Schnittman:
So you're projecting, you're telling on him. What else do you have, dad?
Pete Wright:
Yeah. And I'm meddling. I'm deeply meddling. Yeah.
Brooke Schnittman:
Yeah. There's that connection piece for him, and he's younger, so he might not have that meta cognitive executive function skill, or the connection of why it's important if it's coming from dad, who's just annoying him, because dad annoys, mom annoys. That's why we pay executive function coaches and tutors, even if we are them ourselves.
Pete Wright:
Yes.
Brooke Schnittman:
Right?
Pete Wright:
Yep.
Brooke Schnittman:
But yes, there has to be that connection of why it's important, and what does that mean to them, and how does that simple thing that they think they can avoid to do the hard, "productive things" that they have to get off their to-do list, why is doing that simple thing going to get them to produce even better in the long term?
Pete Wright:
Yeah. Well, and that's so interesting, because I feel like coming to that understanding requires you to be able to recognize the signs of underwhelm in yourself. And I think that's because of the metacognitive challenges, the regulation challenges that we have. It's hard to recognize that.
Brooke Schnittman:
Yes, it's very hard to recognize that. And you're right, so looking from a bird's eye view of, "What's happening to me? How is this happening? Why is this happening?" We don't typically stop and pause. Usually we get into that doom loop of like, "Oh my God, I'm not doing this, I'm not doing this. I'm not doing this, I'm not doing this. Oh my God, oh my God, oh my God, oh my God, oh my God. And then you get overwhelmed, right? When you were underwhelmed to begin with. So, now it's exhausting, and then you shut down, and do nothing, and then you feel terrible about yourself, because you are-
Nikki Kinzer:
Exactly, yeah.
Brooke Schnittman:
You did absolutely nothing, and you weren't productive, and you know.
Nikki Kinzer:
"I should have, I could have."
Brooke Schnittman:
It's this spiral.
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah.
Brooke Schnittman:
"I could have."
Nikki Kinzer:
Right, right.
Brooke Schnittman:
"They're doing it." Then you go on social media and everyone else is doing the thing that you thought you should be doing, and it looks like they're doing it the way that you should have been doing, so now everything is wrong, and then you burn out again, and the spiral just goes on, and on, and on, until you can take care of those basic hierarchy of needs with that accountability, with that connection, with making it so small, and at the same time, tying it to an actual other task that you need to do. So, taking care of yourself at the same time as doing a task that you've been wanting to do for a long time.
Nikki Kinzer:
So, can you give us a specific example, maybe something that you worked with a client, just so that people can really wrap their heads around what you're talking about?
Brooke Schnittman:
Totally. So, if someone is in chaos, which we could be in chaos multiple times a day, multiple times a week, month, year, understanding your why, and making these big goals aren't going to help you. So, you need to just take action to build momentum. But at the same time as taking action, you also have to ask yourself, "What am I not attending to in myself?" And your body always knows what you're not attending to. What's the first thing that you need? Is it water? Is it time to yourself? Is it going-
Nikki Kinzer:
Sleep?
Brooke Schnittman:
Is it sleep?
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah. Yeah.
Brooke Schnittman:
Right. Is it eating? Is it reading? Is it listening to music? Is it a podcast? Is it getting away from stimulus? What is it that you need? So, at the same time of taking care of, let's say, taking that nap, and not feeling guilty about it at 2:00 in the afternoon for 20 minutes, and then when you wake up from the nap, you're going to send one email, because your email list is now a mile long, and you're avoiding it like the black plague, but the more you avoid it, the worse it gets. So, chopping off, or cutting part of that rock down, so you clear some of that chaos, and that space so you can create forward action. And once you start doing something, even it's 1%, then you continue to take more and more action, and feel less guilty over time.
Pete Wright:
Can you talk for a second about the specific executive function deficit that prevents us from seeing Maslow correctly, or Maslow thoroughly? Does that make sense? What is the executive function deficit that prevents us from being able to understand our need for the basics?
Brooke Schnittman:
So I love Dr. Thomas Brown's model, the six executive function clusters. So, I would say it's all of them. The ability to get started, and activate. The ability to sustain attention on something that isn't interesting. The ability to sustain effort, your working memory. So, like, "Oh my God, I really need to get that water, because I'm dry. I'm thirsty." But I forget about it, because all of a sudden I'm thinking about five other things that I have to be doing. So trying to keep that thought in your head because of your poor working memory is going to get in the way of taking care of your hierarchy of needs, unless you put it in front of you, and you actively even put a post-it on your mirror with the three things, or one thing you should attend to for yourself that day, when you wake up, or even during the day. Another thing is completion. So, executing it all the way till the end. There's lots of reasons why we can't finish things. So, I would say that to answer your question, it's all of the executive dysfunctions that get in the way.
Pete Wright:
Well, and I think to me it's important to be aware of that, that I'm not just hunting for a single silver bullet. I have to be holistically aware of my experience, which is hard to do, and it's okay because we can do hard things.
Brooke Schnittman:
Absolutely.
Pete Wright:
It just takes practice and intent.
Brooke Schnittman:
Oh, and one last... Thank you, executive function that I forgot to mention, emotion, right?
Nikki Kinzer:
Right.
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Brooke Schnittman:
So emotion is one of Dr. Thomas Brown's clusters. So, if you aren't doing all of those other five executive functions, or you have a deficit in those, then you're going to get emotional. "Why can't I remember those multi-steps? Why am I processing this so slow? Why can't I finish it? Why can't I start?" And then you get emotional, you get angry, you get upset, you feel that rejection, and then all the shame starts kicking again.
Pete Wright:
Yeah. Yeah. Oof. So, thanks. I'm really tired all of a sudden.
Brooke Schnittman:
So this is what you do about it. Nothing, right?
Pete Wright:
Yeah, no. So we're done. Yeah. Before we get into specifically tackling some things, let's swing the other way, right? Let's talk about overwhelm as... Even though we know overwhelm can be kind of a table stakes emotional position for people with ADHD, how do we get there? Why is it that overwhelm is the thing that we need to be aware of?
Brooke Schnittman:
Yeah. Everything is usually of equal importance to us. So, if everything is of equal importance, what do we start first, and how do we finish it? So, we can get overwhelmed by deciding, and choosing, that's one thing. We can get overwhelmed by too much stimulus. We can be overwhelmed by not finishing things, and having too much on our plate. We can be overwhelmed by our own negative thoughts, and our shame spirals. We can be overwhelmed by our executive functions not working properly, and feeling bad about it. We could be overwhelmed by anxiety, the anxiety that kicks in because we don't have our ADHD managed the way that we want to. Or, we can be overwhelmed because a new thing popped up that we didn't expect, and it took us off of our route that we had created the structure for, and now we're floundering because we don't know when we're going to finish the things that we promised we were going to finish today.
Nikki Kinzer:
Well, and it's that all or nothing thinking that I hear you talking a little bit about too, is something happened you weren't expecting, and it completely threw everything off. And so, a lot of times people will feel like, "Okay, well then the day's ruined." Or...
Brooke Schnittman:
Yes. Yes.
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Brooke Schnittman:
And then why even start?
Nikki Kinzer:
Right.
Brooke Schnittman:
Exactly, right? And then a big thing that is on a bigger level, going on vacation, getting sick, getting hurt. So, it takes you off of your routine, and then you have no idea how to get back onto that routine, because you forget about the smallest thing to get back on there, the thing that you can attach to, like, "Ooh, if I do this one small action that I know I can do, then I'm okay performing at 20%, if I'm giving 20%." You know what I mean? It's like, it's okay-
Nikki Kinzer:
So that's the talking to yourself about it, like you're coaching yourself, because what you just said is, "Okay, I can do this." Right? So, it's also this mindset of recognizing the overwhelm, and then what is that first step, or what questions do you have to ask yourself to activate?
Brooke Schnittman:
Yes.
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah, interesting.
Brooke Schnittman:
Yes. And if you know that there are things coming up that are going to throw you for a loop, or trying to activate the metacognitive executive function that is so hard in us, and think... Prepare for when things are pretty stable, and there's momentum. Prepare for the worst case scenario. "If this happens, then I'm just going to do that one thing that I know I can attach myself to, to start giving me momentum."
Nikki Kinzer:
And do you find that to be a way to avoid that overwhelm early, is to know that it might be coming?
Brooke Schnittman:
Yes and no, and both. So, if you feel overwhelmed when things happen like that, it will catch you in your overwhelm cycle, and it will be like a stop sign, almost, like a visual, like, "Oh, I know if I just do this one thing, and I finish it, I'm going to be okay for today."
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah.
Brooke Schnittman:
Or, yes, it could stop you from feeling overwhelmed. Both.
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah.
Pete Wright:
What's so interesting about this is hearing you talk about the circumstances that drive toward overwhelm is the way the Venn diagram of constituent sort of experiences for underwhelm, and overwhelm overlap. The whole idea that it's some of the same triggers, and the lack of preparedness, the lack of awareness, lack of self-awareness in the things that are required of us, that drive us to both states.
Brooke Schnittman:
Yes.
Pete Wright:
And that is a new awareness for me.
Brooke Schnittman:
Yes. It's interesting, because when I was writing my book, I was thinking, "Okay, these are two separate things." But then every time I tried to come up with an example, I was like, "Wait, I'm feeling these two things kind of at the same time, or one is driving me to the next one."
Pete Wright:
Right.
Nikki Kinzer:
Yes. Yes.
Pete Wright:
Right. Right. That's crazy. And so, the act of moving, as we move toward, how do you take the boulder, and start pushing it out of the way for either one of them, seems like those should be connected too, right? Those strategies to combat both of those?
Brooke Schnittman:
Yes.
Pete Wright:
Talk us through that. What's your mental model?
Brooke Schnittman:
Okay. So, my thought, again, is going back to that small little thing, that 1% action that makes you feel good about yourself, and also takes care of the basics. And then you build on that, like staircase, like this is not a new concept, and you get to the momentum, the motivation, and the confidence, eventually, removing yourself from feeling like it has to be an A+ 100% every day. If you feel the triggers of overwhelm, or even underwhelm, whatever your body is feeling, "I'm underwhelmed because I am watching TV all day, and I cannot get myself to do my work that my boss needs me to do, because it's not exciting enough." That might be underwhelm. But I'm watching TV all day, and I'm not doing the work, because I don't know where to start, and it's too overwhelming is overwhelm. So, how can you get clarity on what that first step is?
Pete Wright:
Right, because either way, the shift in context is horrifying.
Brooke Schnittman:
Horrifying. Right.
Pete Wright:
Either way, it's horrifying.
Brooke Schnittman:
Right. So what is that first thing that you need to do? If you legitimately don't know for work what that thing is, do something for yourself first. Turn off the TV, and do the one thing that you know you can always come back to. If it's going outside, looking at the sun, taking a walk, doing deep breathing. If it's exercising, maybe you're a hard charger to try to get into the flow state. Do something to get yourself back into flow. And there's lots of flow tests online, from Steven Kotler, and other people, but what is the thing that you can do for yourself to get your brain activated, and to start thinking differently, so now you're not as emotionally connected to the task at hand that you need to do, and you could start thinking creatively on how to solve that one little first step.
Maybe it's talking to someone in your company that can help you problem solve out loud, and verbally process. Maybe it's just opening up the email again from a different place, where your emotions and your amygdala isn't firing like crazy, and you're looking at that same email very differently. Maybe it's just brainstorming everything that comes to your mind, and then mind mapping it to get unstuck, and you see it visually, so you can understand the first step. Maybe it's actually having a conversation with your boss, too. Whatever it is, you'll have more clarity once you take care of whatever your need is, and you're not coming from an emotional state.
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah. The only thing I want to add too is that I think if you're focusing on just that first step, and ignoring everything else, right? Because I think it's so easy, I always talk about the forest and the trees. It's so easy for an ADHD-er to look at the whole forest and get completely overwhelmed, and not know how to get through it. But if you're just looking at that one tree, and figuring out what you need to do with this one tree, and having the rest of the forest be blurred right now, it takes the pressure off too, of having to figure it all out right now. We're just looking at that first step.
Brooke Schnittman:
100%. And I think sometimes we think of having to have a vision of the end goal as the north star. We have to have that. No, you don't always have to have that, like you said, blurring the forest, looking at that one tree. And then, well you know what happens, once you start, you're like, "Oh, I'm getting more clarity, and my direction is going non-linear anyway. It's totally zigzag. We're all taking different directions to get to whatever it is." And that thing might change, that North Star, anyway.
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah, absolutely. That's a very good point.
Brooke Schnittman:
If you think about problems in your life, like if you're married, or if you have [inaudible 00:28:49], right?
Pete Wright:
"When you think about problems in your life, like if you're married."
Brooke Schnittman:
I'm sorry.
Pete Wright:
Excellent. No, we get it.
Nikki Kinzer:
We get it.
Brooke Schnittman:
[inaudible 00:28:57].
Pete Wright:
We just learned a lot about you, just like right now,
Brooke Schnittman:
I hope I have [inaudible 00:29:03].
Nikki Kinzer:
I just have to say Brooke, in our meeting before the podcast, I made a comment saying, "All children lie."
Pete Wright:
Yeah, children are filthy liars. Why do you say these things out loud? I don't know. Now it's on the podcast.
Nikki Kinzer:
I don't know why we say these things out loud.
Brooke Schnittman:
Well, thank you for making me not go into RSD mode, because I would've definitely thought about my comments a lot and been in that cycle.
Pete Wright:
Yeah, no. It's all right.
Brooke Schnittman:
So thank you for stepping me out of it.
Nikki Kinzer:
Yes.
Brooke Schnittman:
But yeah, I think the biggest thing that all humans as a society want is control.
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah.
Brooke Schnittman:
We want to always... Right? Like think about the name of your podcast.
Nikki Kinzer:
Right, yeah.
Brooke Schnittman:
And we can't have control of everything.
Nikki Kinzer:
Nope.
Brooke Schnittman:
We can try. And that's why if you know can control going and getting a glass of water, or opening up the book, or putting on clothes, or going outside, at the very basic level, then if we can't control the forest, or everything else, or what other people are thinking, or what the results are going to be, at least we can control a little bit of how we feel, and what we do for ourselves.
Pete Wright:
I want to ask a pivoting question. As a person, yourself, who is an acknowledged member of an ADHD family, how do you handle the, what I like to call the ADHD overwhelm contagion? Because we in our family, with multiple members with ADHD, we find we influence one another in a way that indescribably passes the state of anxiety, and overwhelm from a ADHD from one member of the family to the other. Happens all the time. How do you navigate those particular waters? What's the mental model for that? The self-talk that keeps you sane?
Brooke Schnittman:
Yeah, good question. It changes every day, and I'm actively working on this with my therapist, so thank you to all mental health professionals out there, because even us as coaches, and mental health therapists, we need people like us to help us too, because we're helping so many other people.
Pete Wright:
Amen.
Nikki Kinzer:
Amen.
Brooke Schnittman:
Really, it's just the pause, the stop, the awareness of when my body is being triggered, and when I'm starting to have that negative feeling towards my partner, towards my kids, "Why am I starting to feel so negative? And am I tired, or is this conversation not going the way that I thought it was going to go, so they're triggering me?" So, just taking the pause, taking the full on stop, and coming back to it when my body's regulated, because nothing happens in a good way when you are emotionally dysregulated. And I was even talking-
Pete Wright:
Yeah. Yeah.
Brooke Schnittman:
Because this is really fancy, and I just wanted to tell you, I was talking to my therapist, and she was saying that you can't stay in an emotionally dysregulated conversation, or an emotionally charged conversation for longer than 15 minutes.
Pete Wright:
Just as a result of stamina? Like you'd just run out of steam?
Brooke Schnittman:
That's a great question, and I will have to get back to you on that, but it's not Goddisman's theory, Gottman's theory, but it's another person who competes with him, and he says that literally if you have an emotionally charged conversation, I think your executive function is just... Obviously, we know it doesn't work after a while, but they really don't work after 15 minutes.
Nikki Kinzer:
Shuts down.
Brooke Schnittman:
Yeah.
Nikki Kinzer:
Which makes sense, because it's one of those things that you leave the conversation, and you're always ruminating about how it went, and like, "Oh, I should have said this or I should have said that." And it's like, "But you didn't have those words in your mind at the time because you're so..."
Brooke Schnittman:
Yeah.
Pete Wright:
Well, yeah.
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah.
Pete Wright:
You're neuronally exhausted, when there's no juice in the tank, emotional juice.
Nikki Kinzer:
Right. Yeah.
Brooke Schnittman:
Yeah.
Pete Wright:
Weird, gross.
Brooke Schnittman:
And with that emotional gross juice-
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Brooke Schnittman:
I think that doing something that is for you first, so you feel more empowered to have that conversation, or to see your kids, or your partner from a different lens. So, are you having those difficult conversations, or asking them for favors, or things that you would like around the house? And are you working collaboratively, first of all? But at the same time, it's so hard to always have a collaborative conversation. So, if you're going to come into a challenging conversation, make sure you're regulated, make sure you drink that water, work out, you've slept, and if you haven't done that, and then you start being charged, just straight up practice stopping.
Nikki Kinzer:
Well, and it's interesting with kids, because you can read them before they even speak, right? Because I can tell when my daughter woke up, if she wakes up in a bad mood, it's, "Good morning, Paige." "Mmm."
Pete Wright:
Oh yeah.
Nikki Kinzer:
That's what I get. I get, "Mmm."
Brooke Schnittman:
Shut the door.
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah. So then I know-
Brooke Schnittman:
I'll come back and try that again.
Nikki Kinzer:
Okay. But then when I hear, "Good morning," and she's like, "Good morning," I know she slept well. Right?
Brooke Schnittman:
Exactly.
Nikki Kinzer:
Or something's going well. So, I think for parents, we also need to... What does Carolyn McGuire say? Read the room. You kind of have to pause and read the room. And with children especially, we can't take it personally, as parents. It's like this is not a personal thing. She's not mad at me necessarily. She probably just didn't get a good night's sleep.
Pete Wright:
And that is the problem for the empathetic ADHD vibe, is that it doesn't matter if she slept good or bad. What matters is I feel poisoned by that reaction, and I'm sure it has something to do with me. Right, "Sure." With air quotes.
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah.
Brooke Schnittman:
Right, yeah.
Pete Wright:
Like [inaudible 00:35:05] heavily influenced by that.
Nikki Kinzer:
RSD is kicking in at that point. Yeah. Yeah.
Pete Wright:
Right. What did I do?
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah.
Brooke Schnittman:
Right. Right. Obviously I'm extremely impulsive right now because I'm excited by our conversation, and my executive functions are working properly and I'm not emotionally charged, so I have another idea. So, when you get into a conversation, asking for permission, "Is now an okay time? Are you in the middle of something?" Because who with ADHD, whether it's your kids or your partner, likes being interrupted when they're in mid-text, or whatever. And then another thing is like, once you finish the conversation, on a scale from one to 10, I'm just wondering, are you... I know this is going to sound not great to some people, but, "How mad are you at me right now?" Because sometimes we feel like certain facial reactions are because they're mad at us, or pissed at us, but it has nothing to do with us.
Nikki Kinzer:
Right. That's interesting. I like that. "From one to 10, how mad are you at me right now?" That's good.
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Nikki Kinzer:
I'm going to remember that.
Pete Wright:
Often it's zero, right?
Nikki Kinzer:
Right.
Pete Wright:
Often it's zero.
Nikki Kinzer:
Because it doesn't have anything to do with you.
Pete Wright:
I hear that too, right?
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah.
Pete Wright:
Right?
Brooke Schnittman:
Yeah.
Pete Wright:
I've got to tell a story. This is... I deeply relate to this. I have friends who are having some trouble, they're separating, and my friend goes to his mother and says, "Are you getting a divorce because of me?" She says that. The mother says that. And I think immediately, "Oh my God, what a delightfully narcissistic example, to think about a non-example, on how to live my life." But that's the... Exactly, it encapsulates exactly the emotional state I'm in when I get something like a hmm on wake up. Clearly, you're pissed at me because of me, and I have to daily practice shedding that responsibility, because it does not exist. It's not my fault, whatever it is, all I can do is be a support to get through to whatever is next.
Brooke Schnittman:
It doesn't come naturally for us ADHD-ers.
Pete Wright:
No.
Brooke Schnittman:
Before I knew I had ADHD, I would always try to get positive reinforcement from friends. Like, "Are you mad at me? What did I do?" And then I remember them kept saying, "It's not about you. Stop it. Now you're making me mad. It's about you now," right?
Pete Wright:
Yeah, totally. It wasn't before. Now you're a jerk.
Brooke Schnittman:
Now it is.
Nikki Kinzer:
Now it is. Yeah. So true.
Pete Wright:
Okay, let's pivot yet again and talk about your fantastic book, Activate Your ADHD Potential. What's it about? What do you want people to know? It's amazing. Please...
Brooke Schnittman:
Thank you.
Pete Wright:
Spread the word.
Brooke Schnittman:
Thank you. So, as an ADHD-er, it was on my bucket list to write a book, and I tricked myself. I'm like, "I'm going to write this book in three days," because I couldn't activate my book writing. I was making it too big. So, I tricked my brain. I legitimately thought, "I don't care. There's no attachment. Three days, I'm going to bang it out. It's going to be 10,000 words. That's all I need." But again, not seeing the forest and just the tree, I started writing. I was like, "Oh, there's more. There's more. There's more. I can't deliver a book just like this. Let me keep going."
So anyway, the long of the short is, Activate Your ADHD Potential has all of the tools that I've created in my signature process, 3C Activation, from 2018 till 2024. And I made it accessible for everyone. So, it's a workbook, and it's a book, and it's for adults with ADHD. It's a 12 step process, and it takes you from chaotic with ADHD, to controlled, to confident in your life, because you're building those action steps in a driven way, to show up differently. So, the thing that we talked about with getting past the underwhelming and overwhelm, that's just step one of the book.
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Nikki Kinzer:
That's great.
Pete Wright:
You call me out in the book.
Brooke Schnittman:
Do I?
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Nikki Kinzer:
Does it say, "Pete Wright?" Yeah.
Brooke Schnittman:
Yeah, exactly.
Pete Wright:
It doesn't say Pete Wright, but believe me, we all know you'd say Pete Wright.
Brooke Schnittman:
Obviously I'm so mad at you.
Pete Wright:
No, you know, you're so mad. This whole discussion of... And I think it relates to overwhelm, that when you talk about procrastination, you mentioned that the superhero in you wants to stop time in order to get your stuff done. And I talk about this all the time, because the worst parts of me, the parts of me that are unhealthy, say, "You know what? Maybe if I just pulled two all-nighters in a row, while everyone is sleeping, I can do all the work." And that of course is insanity. Why would I intentionally do that to myself? That is damaging behavior, and it perpetuates damaging behavior. And so, going through the book, I felt really, really heard, and shouted out.
Brooke Schnittman:
Aw, thank you. Thank you.
Pete Wright:
And so, yes, thank you for it. It's a great addition. I like the idea that it is a workbook. There's a lot to do. I didn't write anything down in it, because I've memorized all my answers.
Brooke Schnittman:
It's okay.
Pete Wright:
But...
Brooke Schnittman:
I'm going to quiz you in a second.
Pete Wright:
Yeah. Right, right.
Brooke Schnittman:
Hey, everyone has different learning styles.
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Brooke Schnittman:
And I appreciate you saying that too, though, because we want to be able to do everything all at once, and that's what burns us out. And we don't recognize when we're getting into that state, and what it was like the last time. That's our metacognition, right?
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Brooke Schnittman:
Our lack of metacognition. What happens, some people, it takes months to recover from burnout. So, think about how unproductive you're being by now shutting down from the world, because you're so depleted.
Pete Wright:
Yeah, right on. Right on.
Nikki Kinzer:
Whole nother topic there, for sure.
Pete Wright:
Yeah, for sure. All right, are you working on another book? Do we have something else that you want to pitch? Where should people go to learn more about you?
Brooke Schnittman:
I am working on another book.
Pete Wright:
There we go.
Brooke Schnittman:
And I'm putting it out there. It was, "Should I work on it? Should I not?" But now I'm saying it, and it's already in production, but I wasn't going to get it out there soon enough. But now I'm going to get it out because I'm telling you. So...
Pete Wright:
So what we've learned is you're writing a new book, children are filthy liars, and people that are married have a problem. That's what we've solved today.
Brooke Schnittman:
Just get off the podcast, please.
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Brooke Schnittman:
I'm embarrassed. I'm going to go shut down now. My next book is about entrepreneurs with ADHD, and how to not burn out when scaling your business, and how to do it with integrity. So, I have a coaching cohort that I've been taking through how to build their ADHD coaching business, and I'm taking all 16 concepts from culture, metrics, doing things the way that you want to do it, not because all the greatest marketers say, "You have to have this list, and you have to do three social media posts a day." What actually works for your energy levels, and how are you going to show up, and sustain a business with the metrics you really want, and why do you want it? So, yes, I'm working on that right now. But, in real time, you could just come to Coaching With Brooke. There's lots of free resources on Instagram, have coachingwithbrooke. Everything like you guys, is coachingwithbrooke, so it's super simple.
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah.
Pete Wright:
Outstanding.
Nikki Kinzer:
That's great.
Pete Wright:
Well, I'll tell you, Coaching With Brooke, you're the best. Thanks for hanging out with us today. We sure appreciate it.
Brooke Schnittman:
Thanks Pete and Nikki. So are you.
Nikki Kinzer:
Thank you for being here.
Pete Wright:
Oh.
Brooke Schnittman:
I needed that.
Pete Wright:
All of you listening, we appreciate you downloading, listening to the show. Thanks for your time and attention. Don't forget, if you have something to contribute to the conversation, we're heading over to the Show Talk channel in our Discord server. You can join us right there by becoming a supporting member at the deluxe level or better. On behalf of Brooks Schnittman and Nikki Kinzer, I'm Pete Wright, and we'll see you next week, right here, on Taking Control: the ADHD Podcast.