It’s OK to Change Your Mind
In this episode of Taking Control: The ADHD Podcast, Nikki Kinzer and Pete Wright discuss changing your mind and the challenges it presents for those with ADHD. Nikki shares a personal experience from her recent declutter challenge, during which she felt the urge to switch gears and focus on a different project—organizing and hanging photo frames. This shift in focus prompted a discussion about the difficulties of changing course and the feelings of failure that often accompany such decisions for individuals with ADHD.
Nikki and Pete explore the concept of black-and-white thinking, also known as all-or-nothing or absolute thinking, and how it can lead to self-judgment and self-loathing when faced with the opportunity to change one's mind. They discuss various cognitive distortions, such as overgeneralization, mental filters, and emotional reasoning, which can contribute to these negative thought patterns.
They discuss the sunk cost fallacy, the tendency to continue doing something because of the time and effort invested, even if it's no longer beneficial. Nikki shares a relatable example involving an unfinished 2,000-piece puzzle and an upcoming furniture delivery, highlighting the importance of self-compassion and reframing the concept of "finishing" in a more ADHD-friendly way.
Throughout the episode, Nikki and Pete emphasize the significance of self-awareness, flexibility, and healthy self-talk when navigating the challenges of changing one's mind. If you’re stuck, it might be time to redefine goals, be kind, and understand that it's okay to adjust course when necessary.
Links & Notes
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Pete Wright:
Hello everybody, and welcome to Taking Control: The ADHD Podcast on TruStory FM. I'm Pete Wright, and oh look, it's Nikki Kinzer.
Nikki Kinzer:
Oh, look. Hello everyone. Hello, Pete Wright.
Pete Wright:
Hi, Nikki. Hi.
Nikki Kinzer:
Hi.
Pete Wright:
I'm excited to be podcasting with you again this second episode of Season 29. Welcome.
Nikki Kinzer:
If you don't want to, you can change your mind, it's okay.
Pete Wright:
And I can feel good about it. I don't have to be filled with self-loathing and self-judgment and-
Nikki Kinzer:
That's right.
Pete Wright:
And just rage like I'm accustomed to. It's fine.
Nikki Kinzer:
We can do it on a different day, it's fine.
Pete Wright:
Which is exactly what we're talking about today. We are talking about... Well, you were inspired. You were inspired.
Nikki Kinzer:
I was inspired.
Pete Wright:
To change your mind, and we changed our mind on this episode. And we're doing this right now today.
Nikki Kinzer:
That's right.
Pete Wright:
Which is going to be really, really great. And so before you do that, head over to the website TakeControlADHD.com to get to know us a little bit better, you know the whole drill, Pinterest, Facebook, Instagram, it's all Take Control ADHD. We're going to be talking a lot on those platforms. We'll be talking on personal platforms too. I'll go ahead and shout it out. I started my Instagram account again, _PeteWright, and I'm going to be talking about stuff. You know how I know, because I've been assigned to do so. And so get ready for more of that. If you want to jump into our Discord community, visit takecontroladhd.com/discord and you'll be able to log in there. A lot of the channels are free, but if you really want to help us out, and if you're a longtime listener of the show and have just been considering what you might do to support Nikki and Pete and The ADHD Podcast team, head over to Patreon, patreon.com/theadhdpodcast.
Listeners supported podcasting, that's what that is. For a few bucks a month, you support the show for sure. You help us put shoes on our feet and food on our tables, and you also get access to other stuff like all the secret channels at the different tier levels in Discord. And there's a lot going on in there, which is really, really fun. You also get access to the live stream. You join us for the member only segments before and after every podcast in the live stream. You get access to all the goofiness. We talked about cars before the show started today. You missed out on that if you didn't hear it.
Nikki Kinzer:
And you also missed out on the fact that Pete has red pants.
Pete Wright:
Sassy pants. Yeah.
Nikki Kinzer:
Or will have.
Pete Wright:
I will.
Nikki Kinzer:
He will have some red sassy pants very soon for Deadpool.
Pete Wright:
I aspire. Yeah, I aspire to red pants. And so there's just a lot going on in the member community, and we are super grateful for everybody who supports the show and continue to help us grow. So if you haven't thought about it, now's a great time. Patreon.com/theadhdpodcast to learn more. All right, Nikki, here we are.
Nikki Kinzer:
Here we are.
Pete Wright:
This is it. It's the mind-changing thing.
Nikki Kinzer:
It's okay to change your mind.
Pete Wright:
Let's talk about where this came from. It was inspired by something that happened in the Declutter Challenge, right?
Nikki Kinzer:
Yes. So it just recently happened. So the Declutter Challenge that we have, we have four Saturdays that we work together, right? Doing the body doubling and doing the decluttering. And last Saturday I was in my attic area. Yes, the attic that I fell through one time.
Pete Wright:
That is a dangerous [inaudible 00:03:30].
Nikki Kinzer:
It is a very dangerous place. And Melissa told me to make sure I had my hard hat on. I didn't have my hard hat on.
Pete Wright:
And your camera.
Nikki Kinzer:
And my camera.
Pete Wright:
Because we definitely want to see if anything new happens.
Nikki Kinzer:
Right. But I was very, very careful when I was in this attic space, but this is what I found. So my husband's a photographer and we have tons of photo frames, like frames, and we have all of these photos that we've taken over the years. And I was looking at some of them and I'm thinking, gosh, this is such a great photo. Why do we not have this on the wall? And then we have all of these great frames. It's like, why are these not on the wall? Well, we painted our house or inside of our house, I would probably say about two years ago, maybe two and a half years ago.
Pete Wright:
And you never put the pictures back?
Nikki Kinzer:
And we never put the pictures back.
Pete Wright:
Oh my gosh.
Nikki Kinzer:
So we look like we just moved into our home when we've actually been here since 2007. So I pulled all of the picture frames and I mean there's a lot of them, at least 50 if not more. I pulled all of the frames out into our guest room and now they're there. And I was talking to our GPS members, since there are some members from GPS that are in the Declutter Challenge. So we were on our Monday meeting and it was during Q&A, and I was like, "I kind of think I want to change my focus from the decluttering to actually focusing on these frames because I would really like to know which ones are broken, which ones I want to put up, and then start putting them up in my house." It's interesting because I'm changing my whole focus for the last session. So in the last session this Saturday, I'm going to be working on the photo stuff and not decluttering. And some people might think that that's wrong because I'm veering away from the original intention.
Pete Wright:
Well, and I think it's really important to address why we're met with such a strong emotional reaction to that, if we're met with a strong reaction to that, because I get it. I really get it. And I would say with ADHD at its very root for me, is I have been told all along that ADHD is what is preventing me from getting something done. Therefore, if I choose to change my mind and try to be open to that, the immediate response is, oh no, that's ADHD talking. It's not real. It's not a real intention. I shouldn't honor that because that's just my brain getting in the way of me doing something I don't want to do.
Nikki Kinzer:
And that's where I think you have to be really honest with yourself. And this is why we're talking about this, because as we're going to explain this, with ADHD, there comes this challenge of black and white thinking. It can be black and white thinking, all or nothing, absolute thinking. They all mean the same thing. So where the issue is with this is that, I... What do I want to say? I committed to a challenge and now I'm changing my mind. And what you're saying is, well, ADHD is telling me that I'm changing my mind to avoid the Declutter Challenge, but I know that that's not true. You know how we were talking about we lying to ourselves, are we being true to ourselves? And so I think that this is where the conversation, and this is why I inspired this show, is because when we were talking about this with the other declutter member is she said, "Well, it makes sense because the impact for you on these frames is higher right now to get this done because you're going to enjoy them. You're going to be getting them back..."
And I'm using 3M strips to get them on the wall. And so as I was talking to her about it, I'm like, I feel better about this because I'm not breaking the rules and I'm not leaving something because I don't want to do it. I am just switching gears because right now this feels more important. It is more important. It doesn't just feel, it is, it to me. I would rather spend the time doing this and I'll go back to the decluttering. And so I think that there's a conversation because yeah, my first reaction to all of this too is like, well, I failed. I'm not doing the challenge. I'm giving up. I'm quitting, but that's not true. I'm not giving up. I'm not quitting. I'm switching gears. I'll go back to it. I'll continue to do this. But right now, I found something that I wasn't expecting that is really important to me to take care of, and this is the opportunity to do it.
Pete Wright:
And I think that's the important distinction. But I also think that is what is so hard about ADHD, because intermittent reinforcement of those signals means that I can feel like this other thing is more important. I can know in my heart of hearts that it's more important and that can still be a fake signal. So I have learned not to trust those signals because of my ADHD, I've learned not to trust them. So any change in gears ends up being an opportunity for me to revisit the feelings of failure, even if it's true.
Nikki Kinzer:
Right, right. And I think that that's why this conversation is so important, because that is the black and white thinking, because you're saying, if I don't do this, I failed. If I don't do this, ADHD came. If I change my mind, I'm doing something wrong. But it is okay to change your mind and it's okay to have a bunch of projects that aren't finished. We have to be okay with that because that is the reality of ADHD. There are going to be some things that aren't finished. But the other thing I want to say here is don't discount. I did three weeks of decluttering.
Pete Wright:
Your brain's going to throw that right away.
Nikki Kinzer:
Oh my gosh, yeah.
Pete Wright:
You change your mind. Clearly it's not worth it. And we'll get to it, but we should get to it because this is the thing that I think is probably biggest for me in this entire discussion. It all leads to sunk cost fallacy for me. It all leads to that. And I don't remember if we talked about it in our mental models series, but we need to get to it because all of the things leading up to it are all manifestation of cognitive distortions, binary thinking we've talked about before. And the biggest one for me is exactly what you just said. So let's talk about how black and white thinking can emerge.
Nikki Kinzer:
Well, I'm going to give you real examples of things that I've heard recently.
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Nikki Kinzer:
Okay. So time blocking doesn't work for me because I don't do what I say I'm going to do.
Pete Wright:
Right.
Nikki Kinzer:
I didn't do everything on my task list today. I should have been more productive.
Pete Wright:
Huge.
Nikki Kinzer:
The morning didn't go as planned. The rest of the day is ruined. And this is a big one.
Pete Wright:
Yeah, a big one.
Nikki Kinzer:
A task took longer than I expected, I'm not being productive enough. And this one is huge. I think that this is a really important one because tasks typically take longer than what we expect. We put way too much on our task list to do for the day, and then when we don't get everything done, we feel like we've done something wrong. We've failed. We weren't productive enough. We should have done something different. I spent too much time doing this. But the reality is it took you the time that it took you to do this, that's not being not productive. You are productive in that moment. It just took longer than what you expected. Nothing's wrong. You didn't do anything wrong. And so it's such a mindset and or also, again, discounting what it is that you're doing.
Pete Wright:
Right, right. Yeah, I mean that's really important. I went back and I looked up some of our mental model stuff, and so let me just review a couple of the cognitive distortions because you just had another one there that we've run through over the years. All or nothing thinking. Got it. Seeing things in black and white categories. Overgeneralization, right? Drawing broad conclusions from a single event, huge. Mental filters, focusing solely on negative aspects while ignoring the positives. It [inaudible 00:12:47].
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah, you're focusing on everything that you didn't do, but not on what you did do.
Pete Wright:
Right. And we do this all of the time.
Nikki Kinzer:
All the time.
Pete Wright:
All the time. Discounting the positive, rejecting positive experiences as unimportant, right?
Nikki Kinzer:
Or once in a lifetime, like this is just a fluky thing, yeah.
Pete Wright:
Right, right. Jumping to conclusions, making negative interpretations without supporting facts. Got it all the time. Magnification or minimization, exaggerating negatives or downplaying positives. So you're essentially letting the peaks and valleys rule. Emotional reasoning, assuming that feelings reflect your reality. That's very hard.
Nikki Kinzer:
The emotional toll, right? I mean, that's-
Pete Wright:
Totally defines what we're talking about here, how bad we feel when we change directions and change our minds.
Nikki Kinzer:
Yes.
Pete Wright:
Should statements, using words like should, might or ought to define how you feel about doing a thing. Labeling, attaching global negative traits to oneself or others, and personalization, assuming responsibility for events outside of one's control.
Nikki Kinzer:
Absolutely.
Pete Wright:
All the time. And this leads back to my mantra for a lot of years, their stress is not my stress.
Nikki Kinzer:
Their emergency is not-
Pete Wright:
Don't take ownership-
Nikki Kinzer:
... is not my emergency.
Pete Wright:
Exactly. And so those are kind of the mental models, the cognitive distortion, mental models that we've talked about, and I think they really reflect on why we get stuck in this place, this emotional reality of self judgment, self loathing, whatever your norm is when you are faced with an opportunity to change your mind.
Nikki Kinzer:
I want to talk about the sunk cost fallacy again.
Pete Wright:
You got it.
Nikki Kinzer:
I have a really good example.
Pete Wright:
Well, okay, so what is it first, it's the sunk cost fallacy-
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah, let's do the definition.
Pete Wright:
So the tendency to continue doing a thing because you already started doing a thing, even if that thing is no longer beneficial. I mean, you said it, like taking on the Declutter Challenge for three weeks and changing your mind. Well, you couldn't do that because I've already spent these three weeks, I didn't finish, so I have to spend the rest of the week because I'm telling myself that those three weeks no longer matter if I don't do the fourth week.
Nikki Kinzer:
That's exactly right.
Pete Wright:
That's the fallacy.
Nikki Kinzer:
That's it. Yes. And I have this weird little example that's going on right now in my life. So I decided about two weeks ago that I was going to do a 2000 piece puzzle, which is huge, right? Usually I do a 1000 piece, and it's so big that it doesn't fit on my puzzle board, it fits on my table. And so I had to take everything off of the table and I have to put a blanket over it, and I have to put all this stuff on it so that the cats don't get into it and everything, right? Well, it's taken me a long time to work on this, and it's not finished yet. Well, this is the issue. On Friday, we are getting a new table and chairs.
Pete Wright:
I could not imagine. I looked at the notes and I could not imagine where this was going to go.
Nikki Kinzer:
[inaudible 00:16:13].
Pete Wright:
[inaudible 00:16:13] get rid of this. Oh my God.
Nikki Kinzer:
Uh-huh. Because I can't move it to the other table we have, because it's a puzzle and it's 2000 pieces. So unless I finish this puzzle by Friday, which is not going to happen because I'm working and it is just not going to happen, there's still probably at least half that still needs to be done. I am going to have put this puzzle away unfinished.
Pete Wright:
That is heartbreaking. Just as an aside, let me tell you as a parenthetical, this sidebar, we're doing a sidebar.
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah, sidebar.
Pete Wright:
We had puzzle emergencies too. Puzzles were too big. And so we went to a custom acrylic place, and you can take measurements of your table and have them cut giant sheets of plexiglass and keep it in the quarter. But when you do your puzzle, you can then take the plexiglass and put it on top of the table, and then you can use the table again and just know that your puzzle is completely protected. That will not help you here.
Nikki Kinzer:
No. But happy birthday to me. That is going to be my birthday present this year.
Pete Wright:
Absolutely.
Nikki Kinzer:
Brilliant idea. Because then I could have just moved it into my bedroom and put it on top of the bed until we get the new table and chairs. Yeah.
Pete Wright:
Yep.
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah. That's good. All right. But going back to this whole idea, this is a simple... I mean, this is not a life-shattering thing, right? I mean, it's going to be okay. It sucks because I have put a lot of time into what I've already put into it, but it is what it is. It's not going to hurt me or hurt anyone else.
Pete Wright:
But listen to how you're talking about it. That is so healthy the way you're talking about it. And the problem with sunk cost fallacy is we don't normally use that kind of language with ourselves.
Nikki Kinzer:
Right, right.
Pete Wright:
We get stuck in it. And it becomes a thing that it's impossible. There is a room in this potential future where you would be a person to say, I'm not giving up this table. You'll have to make room for two tables.
Nikki Kinzer:
Two tables until I get... Yeah.
Pete Wright:
Until you finish and then come back into the [inaudible 00:18:35].
Nikki Kinzer:
Or I'm going to stay up all night until this thing is done, and it is going to be this huge priority. Right, right.
Pete Wright:
Which is not healthy behavior. You're not being paid to do a puzzle, you're not doing some sort of a contest. It's not a race. You're okay. And that's the healthy language of it, right?
Nikki Kinzer:
This is so prevalent for so many people is again, this conversation is so important because it brings that awareness that what are we telling ourselves? What is the story that we're telling ourselves about the situation? Whatever it is, whether it's a puzzle or switching focuses on a challenge. How are we speaking to ourselves? I think that that's the biggest component, is that self compassion. Are you speaking to yourself about the situation the same way that you would speak to someone that you love? And it was interesting because when that comment came to me around, "Well, it took me longer to do this, so I should have done something different, I should have been more productive." And I asked that person, "So would you have said that to your child? Would you have told them that because they took too long, they weren't productive enough?" And the client kind of stepped back and "No, I would never say that." So then why is it okay to say it to you?
Pete Wright:
Yeah, of course. Of course.
Nikki Kinzer:
And so it really is going back to how you're speaking to yourself as well.
Pete Wright:
So I've been making some notes. I've got questions. Can I ask you some questions, coach?
Nikki Kinzer:
Sure.
Pete Wright:
I've got questions.
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah, go right ahead.
Pete Wright:
One, some of this feels like it's anchored in how we evaluate what it means to finish a thing. And I wonder if there isn't a sub conversation here around how do we reframe the concept of finishing that is more ADHD friendly or more of this sort of change your mind friendly, more adaptable? Have you ever approached that, like redefining what finishing means in planning and goal setting?
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah, I think that that's actually a really important point because how we define things make a difference. And so it would be a question that I would say back to you is what does finish mean to you? What does good enough mean to you? How does it feel to be at a place where good enough is? Because good enough sometimes feels like, well, I didn't do enough, or I should have done more. And so it's peeling back the limiting beliefs and the shoulds. Where are the shoulds in here? And with this game, with this decluttering game, I've had more questions this time around the game itself, because at the end of the month, we're supposed to have 496 items because we're playing the game that you told us about a long time ago.
Pete Wright:
Years, years and years ago.
Nikki Kinzer:
Years ago. And a lot of people are very hung up on if they don't do the 496 items, they failed. And I had to keep reminding them that there's no failure here that if you do a hundred items, that's great. You just let go of a hundred items. And so the game was to gamify it. It was to make it fun, but it's not to make it as a, again, something you failed at the end if you didn't do. So. I think it's getting that flexibility muscle.
Pete Wright:
That's it. It's really only failure if you didn't have fun, if it became painful-
Nikki Kinzer:
I mean, it's supposed to be fun.
Pete Wright:
... that's a failure of the game, not of you. That's not for you.
Nikki Kinzer:
Right. And maybe 496 items isn't your goal. Just because I have it as a game doesn't mean that that has to be your goal. And so also, we had members that were saying, "Well, I'm not really going to focus on the numbers. I'm just going to focus on what I'm doing." And then I'm like, "Yeah, that's it. That's what you're doing. That's what we're doing." So I think it's just that flexibility that even though this is laid out a certain way, doesn't mean that you can't adjust it or you can't tweak it for yourself or that you are not doing good because it's not finished.
I mean, I guess going back to your point is we need to know a better definition of what that means, and maybe nothing is finished. That's the thing too, is maybe there isn't a finish line. When we talk about goals, we don't like that word because it feels like it has to have a start and a finish. When you talk about focus, that feels so much nicer because the focus is something that can be ongoing. It's not something that you have to finish. So yeah, I think-
Pete Wright:
But this is why it comes back to how we define what finish means on a project that we take on. Finish is loaded, right?
Nikki Kinzer:
Oh, it's so much is.
Pete Wright:
But maybe the end of the Declutter Challenge is, I'm going to have fun for a month and I'm going to declutter some stuff in my house with some friends.
Nikki Kinzer:
Yeah, right.
Pete Wright:
Right?
Nikki Kinzer:
Right.
Pete Wright:
Maybe that's the goal. The goal is have fun for a month decluttering. The goal is not a certain number of things. And because as soon as we do that, as soon as we look critically at every project individually about what finished looks like, I think we're going to be able to build a more flexible approach to setting end points that allow for changes in direction, right? That allow us to be opportunistic about the things in our lives. I just want to make sure we balance that with... Let's say I go to work every day and there are deadlines, and sometimes I have to do those deadlines. It's very different when we're talking about not finishing a puzzle or not finishing the declutter challenge than it is when people are breathing down my neck and I have just decided, you know what? I'm changing my mind. I need to do something else. When is it okay to not be okay with yourself versus to be okay with it and push through, do you see what I'm saying?
Nikki Kinzer:
No, I do.
Pete Wright:
That feels like an important difference.
Nikki Kinzer:
Your point is very valid. And I want to share with you, there was a conversation I had with a GPS member, and we were talking about distractions is where it started. And her question was, "I'll have something time blocked and I need to do this task, but I will get distracted by something else like doing the dishes or doing something that I see that needs to get done." And what was interesting is the conversation as it played out wasn't so much about the distraction. It was because she was purposely avoiding something. And so then the conversation switched from how to deal with distractions to how do you deal with an avoided task. So we have to be really true to ourselves and really not accept things at face value. And if something is being avoided, then that is a different situation, especially when there's high impact involved. It's work related, it's financially related or financial consequences. So things like that.
Pete Wright:
Or team related when someone's waiting on you.
Nikki Kinzer:
Or team related. Yeah, yeah. So I think what you're saying is very, it's very true. We have to just be aware that this is where our thinking goes. And then in each situation, because we talk very broadly, we need to really look at the situation and say, okay, what is really going on here and what do I need to do next? And that will either say, it's okay for me to let this go and know that I didn't fail, or nope, there's a pretty high impact here. If I don't follow through with this, I might get fired.
Pete Wright:
Well, you know what's funny, is it seems like what we're talking about here, if you boil it down, and we talk a lot about when you're building out your projects, when you have tasks in front of you and you just don't know how to take a bite out of them to break them down into their smallest atomic component, that's what you do. What is the smallest thing you can do? Going back to Kourosh Dini who just says, "Just visit the thing." Just visit it. Just move it forward by thinking about it kind of hard today. You don't even have to do anything, just visit it. Breaking things down to the smallest atomic components is really important. The same thing I think goes toward defining what endpoints look like. And I think too easily we throw the word finished at it like we know what that is without breaking down what it feels like to actually do the thing, to actually have an accomplishment.
Because sometimes you get to the end and you feel accomplished for something that is different than the thing you started out to do, right? And that's okay. And I think that's really important to look at the word finished at the atomic level too. What are the things that you will have done? Because that might change the way you do things. It might change the way you celebrate the work that you do. It might change the way you communicate with the people to whom you are accountable. All of those things rely on you being super cognizant about the smallest atomic deliverables of the end. I think going through this conversation that helps me, applying a prioritization strategy to defining what end is, allows me, I think, to be more opportunistic when it comes time to change my mind, because I'll know what pieces need to move around more fluidly. Does that make sense? Am I just barking?
Nikki Kinzer:
No, no, it does. And I think just again, to clarify that each situation is going to have a different definition because if you're painting your bathroom, there's a pretty clear... I'm starting to paint my bathroom and the bathroom is ended. If you go halfway and you haven't finished the project, it's probably, I mean, maybe it's good enough if you're okay with having two different colors, but you may want to continue focusing on getting that finished. But decluttering and organizing a home is not as clear. It is not as, this is now finished. And this is where it gets tricky too, when you're writing something or you're writing an email to someone, how do I know when it's finished? How do I know that I can send it? You really have to look at what you're looking at and make that decision and go through that question process to figure out what you're comfortable with.
Pete Wright:
Right. Right. That's good. We finished, right? Did we finish? I don't know that I knew what-
Nikki Kinzer:
I feel like we finished.
Pete Wright:
... finished would look like. I feel good about this.
Nikki Kinzer:
I mean, this is going to come up again.
Pete Wright:
Well, this was great. Thank you everybody for hanging out and listening to this and hopefully getting some thoughts out of it for the way you handle your own projects and your own feelings about changing your mind. We are going to hang up the main show now because we've got to jump into the member only chat, and there are people who are chatting right along with the live stream in Discord. And so we're going to go in there and take questions. And that is a benefit that you get when you become a supporting Discord member at the deluxe level, or better. We hope that you consider joining so you can be a part of these kinds of great conversations. Thank you so much for your time and attention. We'll see you over in the Show Talk channel in Discord. And on behalf of Nikki Kinzer, I'm Pete Wright, we'll see you next week right here on Taking Control: The ADHD Podcast.
