426: Lies & ADHD with Ari Tuckman
If you live with ADHD you know the precarious line that you can walk between fact and fiction. Whether you’re tempted to lie to yourself about what you’re capable of in a given time period or lie to your boss about what you’ve accomplished this week, the instinct to make those around you feel better by smoothing the edges of reality is strong.
This week, we’re thrilled to have Ari Tuckman back on the show to talk about ADHD and lies, the situations that are most likely to cause you to push that button, and how to reframe your behavior and make amends if you’ve found yourself in uncomfortable, lie-inducing situations.
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Episode Transcript
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Pete Wright: Hello everybody, and welcome to Taking Control, the ADHD podcast on Rash Pixel FM. I'm Pete Wright, and I'm here alone. My fantabulous partner, Nikki Kinzer, has taken ill and wasn't able to join me, but today we shall soldier on. Because we have a fantastic guest, as we kick off our next series on ADHD and communication. Today we're talking all about ADHD and lying.
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Pete Wright: We are starting a new series today. We're starting a series around communication and ADHD. Who better to come back and talk to us about communication than Ari Tuckman. Psychologist, certified sex therapist, international speaker, author of four books on ADHD. You might remember him from late last year when he came and talked to us about ADHD after dark. That was another first.
Pete Wright: First time we've ever talked about sex on the show, quite so blatantly. So we deeply welcome Ari, and are excited to see what new wonders he has yet to share as we talk about lying. Ari, how is it that you come back to talk to us about sex and lies, back to back? This is fantastic, welcome back to the show.
Ari Tuckman: Well, it is a pleasure to be here. I think it's a great topic, sort of one of those things. So you get an idea and then you start seeing it. You know what I mean? I've had, I mean today is Monday. But in the last week I've had a number of situations of clients and we're talking about lying and the truth, or lack thereof. Actually, the last person I just saw, who walked out of here 15 minutes ago, we were talking about lying and truthfulness.
Ari Tuckman: This is actually the thing I'm going to talk about at the upcoming big international ADHD conference in November, down in Dallas. Because I feel like this is such a great and relevant, important topic.
Pete Wright: I think it's hard for people to talk about this. I'd like to start maybe, and this is a tough question to wrap my head around, so bear with me. When we think about people who lie, we have, I think a natural emotional, and dare I say, moral response to it. That there is this thing, that they must be bad people, or they must have some sort of crisis of faith to treat me so poorly, or something.
Pete Wright: Here, we're talking about a landscape of fear and judgment, and these sort of lie inducing situations, when you're living with ADHD. That almost makes lying not a moral landscape but a sort of, practical is not the right word, but systemic. It's almost systemic in living with ADHD, that you have come across this pattern. Am I saying that right?
Ari Tuckman: Yes. I think you're absolutely right. I think that there's a slippery slope phenomenon, and I think just to start out by just finding some terms. Lying is saying something inaccurate but, and here's the important part, with an intent to deceive. If I tell you I did something that I didn't actually do, but I think I did because, oh wait, which math homework? No, I did that one. No, actually, as it turns out, I'm wrong. That's not the math homework I did. But that's not a lie. Though it's inaccurate, it's perhaps not helpful, but it's not a lie.
Ari Tuckman: Part of the issue, before we even get to actual lying is, I think most of the ADHD are often dinged for saying things that are inaccurate. But because they use up their free passes too quickly, they're then made out to be liars. You told me you did the math homework because you didn't want to do the math homework. It kind of makes sense. You could see how there's, what the mystery novels tell us, or the court dramas. There has to be an, what is it, intent? Then there has to be something gained, or something.
Ari Tuckman: They have a motive. It's tempting to think that the person with ADHD is lying, but they're just confusing the details or getting it wrong. But there's also an element here that, I've got this saying, that bad situations make bad choices more likely. In this case, if you procrastinated on, pick a kid example of doing your homework. Or an adult example of, calling the plumber to schedule them to come fix the sink or something. If you procrastinated and now it's too late, now you're in a bad situation. Either I lie and say, "I called him, he never called me back. You know how those plumbers are."
Pete Wright: Plumbers, the worst. Right.
Ari Tuckman: "I don't know why I keep trying to call him. This is the fifth message he hasn't returned." Or you own it and you say, "You know what, I screwed up. I forgot, I didn't do it. I should've done it. I got caught up in other things." So it's tempting in that situation to lie. Hope no one's the wiser, and then you just call him real quick tomorrow. There, done. Now you're not upset and I'm not upset, and everybody's happy.
Ari Tuckman: It's tempting, because it does keep a bit of the peace at least, if it works. The problem with lying is that it makes one problem into two problems. The first is, you didn't call the plumber. The second is, and now you lied to me about it, which is really worse because now I don't believe anything you tell me.
Pete Wright: And that's the ADHD pile on effect, because the bad situations inducing lying centric situations. That that can happen to anybody, those little crises of accuracy. But the ADHD piece, let's say you develop the muscle for integrity. Owning it, as you say about the plumber. If you're dealing with the plumber, that might be something. But if you're dealing with the plumber, and the fact that a project is late at work, and the fact that you haven't paid the bill for your kid's piano lessons, the pile on effect has to have some sort of exacerbating impact.
Ari Tuckman: Yes, totally. I think, and that's exactly it. If it's just the plumber, whatever. We can all just take the hit like, "I know, I should've called. I didn't, that's on me. Don't worry, I'll take care of it tomorrow." But again, it's that using up of the free passes. Folks with ADHD often have spent far more time being told that they're off task, being told that they're disappointing people, et cetera.
Ari Tuckman: It's easy to be sensitized to that, and to not want to be the bad guy, again. "Here we go again. I'm the bad guy." It's tempting in that situation, to lie to cover it up and hope it all goes away, because emotionally it's not just about the plumber for the person doing the lying, either. It's about all these other things and all this history that gets brought into it.
Pete Wright: To the person who is doing the lying, what's happening to them emotionally, behaviorally, as they slip?
Ari Tuckman: Some of it is just, it's that moment of panic. "I didn't do that thing I was supposed to do." For some of them, sometimes it's just impulsive, like they just sort of impulsively lie to get themself of a bad spot. The ADHD makes it easier to put yourself into the bad spot, and then impulsively also lie to temporarily get yourself out of the bad spot. The reason why it's impulsive is, because it's about improving the moment. I'm off the hook right now.
Ari Tuckman: The amazing thing to me is, often these are lies that are only guaranteed to come out. There are certain things you can kind of get away with, but there's lots of lies where it's like, there's no way that wasn't coming out. How do you think that it wasn't going to? The answer is, they didn't really pause to think. That's why it was, by definition, impulsive. They didn't pause to really think about how this was going to happen later.
Pete Wright: Are you seeing a connection in people who are struggling with their, let's see, ability and willingness to tell the truth, as it is impacted by our current media, political landscape, and the culture of mis-truth?
Ari Tuckman: Yes. I think, absolutely. Why should I tell the truth about the plumber when the President isn't even telling the truth about somebody that was on videotape from two days ago? I do think that there is so much more distrust in news on social media and everything else, and fake news and all. I think people are more distrusting, because it is hard to know, what do you actually believe?
Ari Tuckman: I think that it makes it that much more tempting, but I think frankly, it makes the truth that much more valuable. Once you lose a reputation for being honest, it's really hard to get it back.
Pete Wright: Yes. I absolutely agree with that. I guess that my fear is that the ADHD-ness of finding integrity, is easily impacted when culture around you is being so impacted. And that the value of living in fact and truth is going down. Suddenly, yes I'm late on that project, but maybe the dog ate my homework, is becoming a higher value proposition than just the truth. And that I think is scary, particularly when I'm living in a place where my brain is constantly fighting me for finding circumstances to ease pain for others who have to deal with me.
Pete Wright: That's really what it is. It's not so much like, I'm just a liar. It's that there is another reason, there's another layer on this cake, that says maybe I'm trying to soften the blow for my tardiness. Or for my lack of paying the bill or for whatever the case. I'm trying to make the world a better place, and that is painful when it comes into conflict with our ideological worldview about truth.
Ari Tuckman: Yes. How do I want to see myself? Even if you don't catch me in the lie, how do I feel about it, having done it? There's also that whole thing to remember the truth only requires you to remember one thing, but to remember a lie requires you remember two things. First, the actual truth, and then the thing that you said, and maybe also who you said it to. So maybe that's three things, actually. It does become more and more complicated. It's easy to dig ourselves in deeper and deeper. It makes a hard situation harder, I think.
Ari Tuckman: In this, we're talking a lot about the person who's doing the lying. The thing is, lies are a social thing, in the sense that they happen between two people. There's the person who does the lying, and there's the person who's being lied to. Potentially, both have their part to play, in the sense that if I tell you the truth and say, "I didn't call the plumber today." And you then freak out and start yelling at me, and you get angry, and you start criticizing me. "Here we go again. I can't count on you for anything."
Ari Tuckman: Or conversely, instead of launching into anger you launch into anxiety. Of like, "What are we going to do? We're not going to get a plumber, and then it's going to keep dripping. And then if it drips, it's going to rot out the basin. And if it rots the... I don't understand, I can't keep up. I don't know what to do with all this." And now you're having a panic attack.
Ari Tuckman: Because the good news is you're not ripping me, but the bad news is, you're still creating a bad situation for me to deal with. There is a thing of lie inviting behavior, and I'm stealing that term from Ellyn Bader and Pete Pearson, who wrote a book called, Tell Me No Lies. But it's this thing where, if someone overreacts then it's like the saying I have is, you can't punish honesty and demand the truth.
Pete Wright: That is what insights us to attempt to create a better place for the person, because we know now that they're going to have trouble, no matter what. Maybe they'll go into rage, maybe they'll go into defense, maybe they'll go into panic. But if I have, the only lever I can control, is adjusting the facts? Suddenly my behavior starts to sway.
Ari Tuckman: Yes, exactly. And if it feels that way, that the only lever you got is to change the facts, because you can't go back in time and make it have happened. Then it does really, it's like you're stuck between two bad options. I think it's important to consider the fact that there may be a third option that is harder in the moment, but probably better in the long run. For example, if the issue is, "We really should call the plumber. Seriously, we should, but let's also be clear, our house is not going to be destroyed in a flood if we don't. If it takes another week, it's annoying, but nobody's dying from it."
Ari Tuckman: It may be that the third option, the better path through this, is for me to just own it and say, "You know what? I didn't call the plumber. I understand I should have. It's a pain, I will grant you that. It sucks that we can't use the kitchen faucet, but it's not the end of the world. We'll survive this. I will make a note now and I will call them tomorrow." I don't take on the responsibility for the fact that you are angsting, perhaps overly, about the fact that the plumber hasn't been called today. It's my job to act with integrity, to be honest, to be a considerate partner to you. Let's say we're a couple. But it's not my job to be responsible for your every doubt and fear and worry, and to make sure that you feel totally okay in the world. At a certain point it becomes your job to manage that.
Pete Wright: Which is something, we encourage that all the time. You got to live in your own stuff. You've got to take ownership for your own stuff. I think that's a great model for the interpersonal aspect, that dynamic of the one on one relationship. But navigating it, I'm putting myself in the head of some of our community members, navigating this whole landscape when you're at work. When you work on a project team, and you have 10 or 15 people maybe, involved in a nest of creating something for the world. And you have an experience where either you have misstated the truth, you have lied, or you have seen somebody else in a lie. That can be then, how much more damaging to the team?
Ari Tuckman: I think that if we rewind the tape on this, sometimes the way to not put yourself into that bad situation that makes bad behavior seem tempting, is to address things right up front. To say, "You know what? I don't think I'm going to hit that Wednesday deadline. I'm looking at what needs to be done, I'm looking at what else I need to do. I can't guarantee you it's going to be done by Wednesday." And it's much better for me to tell you that on Monday, than it is for me to tell you that on the end of Wednesday or Thursday morning. Whereas just to tell them, say it's always better to disappoint earlier than later. Because the earlier you disappoint someone, the more options they probably have.
Ari Tuckman: I think it's easy for our folks, well for any of us. But especially for our folks with ADHD, to over commit. And sometimes that's because they don't pause to think about like, "I mean in theory I could get it done by Wednesday, but let me think. Oh, no wait a second. I've got a dentist appointment Tuesday morning and I've got that other thing, and I promised Jenny. That's not going to be done by Wednesday." They don't pause to really think it all through, and make an informed statement about it. Or there's just this thing of like, "I don't feel like I can say no. I got to say yes." And some of that is making up for past misdeeds, but it just kicks the can down the road. It makes it into tomorrow's problem.
Pete Wright: We talk about that all the time from the other side. The dangers of committing and the line we try to habituate is, "Let me get back to you on that after I check my calendar." It doesn't matter if you know the answer right away, just find an excuse to not answer now. I think, from my perspective, that has been enormously powerful for me and my ADHD, which is just default to no/maybe, and not to yes. And it's a muscle that takes a lot of time, because you know you're disappointing people. You know you're disappointing them, but it does reduce those lie inducing situations. It takes you out of that precariousness, where you have to damage a relationship.
Ari Tuckman: Well, what it does is it gives you a few moments to think about it, rather than just knee jerk respond. Like you said, even if you know the answer is, "Yes, I can do that." It's still, taking the pause to then think about, "Okay. That thing I'll do, but how to other things maybe get impacted." You're better balancing different balls that you're keeping up in the air.
Pete Wright: Right. That's not to be understated either, because the benefit of being able to take a pause allows you to consider opportunity costs in your life and make choices. And that's something we often feel like we don't have, is choice.
Pete Wright: Let's talk a little bit about, for lack of a better word, rehabilitation. There's several angles that go into rehabilitation. One, you've got to figure out the relationships, possibly that have been impacted by your own behavior. Two, there's some sort of mental training that goes on. At some point you've got to teach yourself how to be better at this. And three, making amends.
Ari Tuckman: One of the things that I tell people, especially if I've got someone who habitually does a lot of lying, is that sometimes even if in the moment you lie and give the convenient answer. Whether it's two seconds later or two days later, whatever, I think it's still better to come back and say, "You know how I said I called the plumber? I didn't actually call the plumber. I said I did. I, I didn't do it. I thought it would be better if I told you that, rather than you finding out some other way. Or I wanted to be honest, I just panicked in the moment."
Ari Tuckman: I think that, I'm not saying you get full credit for that answer, but you definitely get some pretty solid partial credit. From the receiving partner's side of that, again, you can't punish honesty and expect the truth. For them to get on a high horse or start guilting or get angry or whatever, you're discouraging the behavior you say that you want. Sometimes we start there. Ultimately, it becomes a matter of really setting a reputation of being honest, and the way to believe someone's being honest is that they give you bad news.
Ari Tuckman: If they tell, because that's how you have faith that, "Well, they're saying they did it this time. They have told me recently other things they didn't do. I mean that makes it kind of plausible that they did do this thing, because otherwise they would have told me they didn't." So you create a new reputation for yourself.
Pete Wright: The act of making amends if I put myself in devil's advocate stance, and you think about the plumber example. Isn't there someone out there who's going to say, "Yes, but two days later the plumber got called, why does it matter? Why does it matter?"
Ari Tuckman: Yes. If it's generally isolated incidents and nobody finds out. I mean, it doesn't matter in that case. But it might come out, and that's the risk. That you do call the plumber a couple of days later, and the plumber comes out. And then your spouse talks to the plumber and says, "So he said he gave you a call. I guess have you been busy?" I didn't- [crosstalk 00:22:40]
Pete Wright: Nobody ever calls me. I'm just a plumber that everybody lies about.
Ari Tuckman: Right, exactly. "No. He called and I picked up, and we set it up. I don't know. No, he didn't leave a message." The truth has weird ways of coming out sometimes. It's not to say that you can't get away with it most of the time, because maybe you can. But not always, and do you want to take that chance?
Pete Wright: I feel like, I don't want that question to even be self incriminatory. I really believe what you said earlier, that it takes an enormous amount of energy to lie, and maintain a lie, and live in a space of mis-truth. It takes an enormous amount of work. And if there is anything that we know about living with ADHD is, we have our hands full enough already. There is a very practical reason to just live in fact and truth, and from my perspective, it feels like you're just asking too much of yourself.
Ari Tuckman: Yes. Whose life is so easy that they're like, "Make it one more challenge. Let's level this thing up a bit."
Pete Wright: Level up, I'm going to just start playing games with people. This is great. "Yes, I'm a sociopath. It's fine. It's all fine."
Ari Tuckman: Exactly. There are times where little white lies that, maybe those are a little bit different because that's perhaps more in the service of the person on the receiving end. Like, "Do these pants make me look fat?" Where you're like, "Crap. There is no good answer to that one." Are you being flattering or encouraging in that case? Do they know that you're probably lying a little bit? I don't know. Hopefully they should.
Pete Wright: Isn't that again, part of the cultural exchange?
Ari Tuckman: Yes. But that's a little bit more I think, understandable. As opposed to, like I always come back to Sheldon from Big Bang Theory. Most of what he said that was funny was that he was just being painfully honest. He was just stating the truth as he saw it, that everyone else had the social graces to smooth a little bit. And he didn't, he just laid it out. I suppose then the most truthful way is to say, "Well honey, here's the thing. You have not been exercising lately, and you are eating a lot of crap at night, and really you have gained a bunch of weight. So yes indeed, those jeans do make you look fat. Actually, it's your fat that makes you look fat. Oh, no. That's not what I..."
Ari Tuckman: Now maybe there comes a point where it's like, "I need to tell you something. I don't really feel like saying it, you're not going to want to hear it. But I do think that you're not taking good care of yourself like you used to." Maybe that's a valid conversation to have, but probably not as you're getting ready to go out to dinner and they're asking if these jeans make them look fat.
Pete Wright: In the moment, in the mirror. Not the best time.
Ari Tuckman: Right. That's not an ADHD thing. That's like a whole another, whatever, truth in relationships kind of a thing.
Pete Wright: Well it does get to the question of radical candor. This is a thing that, it feels like this has been bubbling up over the last few years. As maybe it's an act of the pendulum swinging the other way, as one pendulum swings far afield. That there is a practice of radical candor. Do you have any experience with radical candor, or do you practice it?
Ari Tuckman: It's an interesting concept because I think, on the face of it, we can probably all say, "Well yes, sure. You should definitely be honest." We tell our kids and whatever. But I think my concern with radical candor is it sometimes, I think you could use it as a justification to be kind of a jerk. I just wanted to rip you a bit and here at comes, "Hey, I'm just being honest here. I don't want to hurt your feelings but you sort of suck and I hate you."
Ari Tuckman: "Oh, well if you put it that way, I guess I won't get my feelings hurt." I think it's a question of, what is the motive? Who is really benefiting? In the conversation of, "Honey, I feel like you're letting yourself go and you're not taking care of yourself." That's for your partner's benefit. Now maybe you get some indirect benefit, but let's be clear. It's the receiver who's going to benefited from that uncomfortable conversation. I suppose I think, you can run the risk with radical candor, of just being a jerk and being too lazy to filter yourself.
Pete Wright: Yes. This is where I struggle with it, because we see those experiences. Those little, we'll call them white lies for the greater good of your relationship, whatever that happens to be. But also the fact that, is there a habituation element to those little white lies? When you start pushing those bounds, are you just lying about the pants now? Or are you lying about something else that you have just rationalized that is untrue.
Pete Wright: So I'm coming at it from the perspective of, if I want to develop an integrity practice. If I want to find a way to exist outside of lie inducing situations with my ADHD, sometimes I have to bring a big hammer. And maybe a practice of radical candor is the way to do it. So the effort is, I have to find a way to be more artful in the way I speak, or just practice shutting up more.
Ari Tuckman: Yes, exactly. I think that, to really be honest begins, it's first an inside job before a word gets spoken outside. There's a conversation that happens inside our own head, of first of all, being able to be honest with ourselves about it. Because we all lie to ourselves in little ways as well, some of us quite a bit. Hopefully, mostly just a little bit. Being able to be honest with yourself, be able to tolerate the discomfort that comes out of it. And from there, being able to manage the emotions of it.
Ari Tuckman: So if you realize you forgot to call the plumber and then go down a shame spiral about it, and beat yourself up and feel awful, let's be clear. You're not having a good response to the other person in that moment. At first it begins with talking ourselves down from it. And then, to be able to be direct and honest and say, "You know what? I didn't call. I got caught up in other things. I should have set a reminder on my phone. I didn't do that. I understand that you're really busy and you count on me to do my share of things. And I screwed that up, I just should have called."
Ari Tuckman: That can feel really hard to do, to just own it. And yet when you do, at least then it's done. Then the conversation becomes, what do we do next? I think that one of the ways of making amends is not simply to say, "And I will now remember to call them tomorrow, because that didn't work today." But rather, "Here, I am setting an alarm on my phone and you are seeing me do it. Or I'm calling my work voicemail and I'm leaving myself a message at work, which I will get tomorrow at work during business hours. And from there I will make that phone call." So you're doing something that increases the odds that it's going to work out, which makes you then more believable.
Pete Wright: Can you talk a little bit, or reflect a little bit, on the fight or flight mechanism, and how that experience can exacerbate your intensity or your instinct to lie?
Ari Tuckman: Yes. That's that whole integrity thing of, if you find yourself, "Uh-oh," in that risky situation. If you panic, if you get emotionally flooded, you're not pausing to evaluate your options, biting the bullet and being honest. Those are the places where it's really tempting to just knee jerk lie, or to get angry. "Of course I called the plumber. I can't believe you're always doubting me." Kind of going on that, or playing more the victim of, "You always doubt me. I can't really feel like a man in this relationship. You're always undercutting me, especially in front of the kids. Let's bring them into it." Because that's always helpful to messy up a situation. And then it becomes this giant mess, as opposed to just dealing with it as it is.
Pete Wright: At some point, we've talked about the lie inducing behavior. How would you recommend they approach building trust again? Someone who has been lied to, what is trust inducing behavior in that experience?
Ari Tuckman: I think it's helpful for the two people, if we assume that these are romantic partners, not like casual coworkers or something. Let's talk about why honesty is important. If I'm the one being lied to, let's talk about, what can I do to be a more approachable audience? Why do I feel like I need the truth from you? Why is it important to me? What does it do for me? And conversely, when I feel like you're not trustworthy, how does that impact how I respond to this? How does that impact other things in our relationship?
Ari Tuckman: It may be that this conversation about trust goes a bit further afield into others topics, which are all connected. I think for the person with ADHD who has been doing the lying, maybe it reflects the fact that they need to reset some expectations. To say, "You know what? I can't promise you those things. It doesn't work out. It stresses me out when I don't do it, and then it freaks you out when I don't do it. Maybe we need to reassess how we're doing some things around here."
Ari Tuckman: Or maybe it's the thing of, "You send me a quick text tomorrow afternoon. Just check in, make sure I called when it's still business hours and I can still make the call. Don't wait until I get home at dinner and then we're talking about it." The non ADHD partner has to put in a little bit more effort to remember and send a text, but it's less effort than the actual calling. And if a quick friendly reminder does the job, then maybe everybody's happy. So maybe that's the solution there.
Pete Wright: Right. There is a balance in relationships, and we'll speak in terms of couples. But this works at work as well in many relationships. The idea that there's somebody who generally is going to do the dishes and somebody who's going to do the laundry. There's a division of labor and maybe that extends to the partnership around calling the plumber. "I need an accountability person to help me."
Pete Wright: We've talked so much about the sort of cloud of the experience of the lie that, you're absolutely right. We haven't talked about the accommodations that may need to be in place to remove lie inducing situations from the scenario.
Ari Tuckman: Yes, and that's some of this, it may be that one of the setups for the lie is, "I don't want to give you a reminder. You need to just remember it. I don't want to give the reminder." And on the one hand, I don't know, that might be a valid position given the balance of responsibilities to whatever. Maybe it is. On the other hand, if it's easy enough then maybe you yourself are better served by just giving the reminder. Maybe you get more of what you want if you give a quick reminder. It's all about striking a better balance of effort within the relationship. It's not about the non-ADHD partner has yet one more thing to do, because that ain't going to work. But finding the balance, the reminder is given nicely, the reminder is taken nicely.
Pete Wright: You recommended already, I think as an aside, Tell Me No Lies, as a resource that you have been looking at. Any other books or resources that you recommend people check out, if they want to learn more?
Ari Tuckman: The obvious answer here, most probably, is anything related to ADHD, I think is going to be helpful for both partners to set their expectations. Obviously, I would make the recommendation of my newest book, ADHD After Dark: Better Sex Life, Better Relationship. I don't have a chapter on lying in there, per se, but I think generally speaking, this is an aspect of relationships. And the better of the two of you are getting along in other ways, maybe this plays out in terms of the lying behavior, or lack thereof, hopefully.
Pete Wright: All right, we will put those links in the show notes, as always. Where else would you like people to find out more about you, Ari?
Ari Tuckman: The best place is adultADHDbook.com, and I've got information on my books and my podcast. But also I've got a bunch of recordings of podcast interviews and webinars and other presentations and whatnot. So, lots of good resources there.
Pete Wright: Link in the show notes for that, too. I'll tell you what, Ari, it's always a pleasure to talk to you. I know it's a conversation that stresses people out, with ADHD. People who have experienced it, who are experiencing it, who have a hard time with it. I really hope that our conversation has at least helped to ground some of the high emotion that comes with this territory. Thank you for this today, Ari, I appreciate it.
Ari Tuckman: Yes, indeed.
Pete Wright: Thank you all so much for joining us today. On behalf of Ari Tuckman and our poor ailing Nikki Kinzer, I'm Pete Wright. And we'll catch you next week right here on Taking Control, the ADHD podcast.
